almoore Posted May 5, 2009 Share #261 Posted May 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Last post. There's nothing at all strange about receiving a camera before it's available on the open market, and you display yet more ignorance by inferring there is. Leica, along with every other manufacturer, puts cameras in the hands of photographers (a category of camera user that I accept is in short supply here) in the lead up to general release. There were many M8s in circulation by this time. The question (not a statement), which you continue to ignore, was "maybe you can elaborate which sector of the professional market is so buoyant that it's "salivating for exactly this type of integrated MF camera". Or do you believe that there are enough wealthy weekend warriors to make it a viable system?". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 Hi almoore, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted May 5, 2009 Share #262 Posted May 5, 2009 Yes - and Leica's beta testers all sign a NDA not to reveal their identity. If you are one of those not only are you in violation of your agreement, you are one of those responsible for the PR disaster of the IR issue too.I'll stop feeding the troll now.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 5, 2009 Share #263 Posted May 5, 2009 Interesting. A "loaner M8" on 11-11-2006, six days before the camera became available on the open market. I bought my first M8 (on the "open market") on 1st November 2006. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 5, 2009 Share #264 Posted May 5, 2009 I bought my first M8 (on the "open market") on 1st November 2006. And I five days later, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 5, 2009 Share #265 Posted May 5, 2009 And I five days later, Ian. So what was your point about the 17th? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 5, 2009 Share #266 Posted May 5, 2009 That Leica didn't do "loaner" M8 cameras then, except to their beta testers and a few trusted customers. They would sell through a few dealers, that is all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John66 Posted May 5, 2009 Share #267 Posted May 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe almoore has a great relationship with his dealer, like I do with mine. I've been buying my camera equipment from the same guys for the past twenty years. Had I asked for a loner to test, they would most certainly have given it to me. I don't quite understand why Leica people get so irrational when it come to rational debate. All of what almoore has said makes perfect sense, and is based far more on fact than much of what is being is written by the Leica faithful. Sure the S2 has the potential to be brilliant. But on past digital performance, and the current economic climate, it will (as almoore rightly points out) struggle at best. And if there are major flaws with the S2, but the likes of many on this forum defend every failure as just a quirk, convincing Leica never to resolve the issues (like the M8), then it will be a definite disaster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John66 Posted May 5, 2009 Share #268 Posted May 5, 2009 Yes - and Leica's beta testers all sign a NDA not to reveal their identity. If you are one of those not only are you in violation of your agreement, you are one of those responsible for the PR disaster of the IR issue too.I'll stop feeding the troll now.... I know most Leica lovers will defend to the death every Leica mistake - but to start blaming somebody who tested the M8 for the PR disaster over the IR issue is pretty sad, but not unexpected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWright Posted May 5, 2009 Share #269 Posted May 5, 2009 What a strange place this is with people congratulating one another on giving others a "hard time" (don't flatter yourselves) for having the audacity to offer an opinion that doesn't chime with their own - although I guess that's a great deal easier than answering the question I posed to you. I'll happily decline from posting in the future now that the nature of the forum has been spelt out to me. There's no way I'll ever have the time or inclination to match the deluge of immature smiley/scowling face littered posts that Jaap offers. I've no idea what the reference to it being a "giveaway" that I subscribed some time back has, but, for the record, I initially subscribed when I was given a loaner M8 to test. I was curious to see what others made of a camera that, to me, in no way matched the qualities I liked so much about film Ms. Keep your sad little masturbatory forum to yourselves. You're welcome to it... Welcome to the Leica Onanism Forum....you have discovered the essence of this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted May 5, 2009 Share #270 Posted May 5, 2009 Almoore didn't say anything out of line at all. Some people in here seem to think that they own this place because they have made a lot of posts. Kind of a silly way to think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 5, 2009 Share #271 Posted May 5, 2009 I too have found that for my own sanity, I plan to really limit my use of this forum. We're speculating about a camera that isn't priced and isn't out. And I know all I need to know about the M8 and have said all I have to say about that camera. So without facts about the S2 it is kind of a waste of time. The camera will probably have to be out for a year or longer before we'll get much of picture of how well it holds up. Pros are not salivating for the S2. Many pros who used MF in the film days now find that FF DSLRs give them the features (instant review in place of Polaroid) and the quality that they used to get from 6x6 film cameras. And if they really need higher quality and can afford it, there are excellent cameras available now. The only thing the S2 offers over a FF DSLR is somewhat better resolution and perhaps a smoother look in some situatons. (And this is debateable in many applications.) In exchange for that, you pay a lot more and give up some ease of use, ready availability of lenses and bodies, a lot of features, and versatility. I can stitch several 35mm images if I need larger files for my work (mostly static subjects.) In the pro market, there are assistants, digital techs, rental houses, etc who will have to be familiar with the S2 and embrace it before it will take off. Most will wait until the complete system is available, tested, and market proven for around a year before they would consider it. Even then, there need to be compelling reasons for the S2 to displace what is currently available and accepted - especially with rental houses and digital techs. Why should they bother with it when more complete, quality proven alternatives are available? The Rollei 6006 was a very nice system but could never displace Hasselblad's domination in that market. As for this being a ground up digital system? What does that mean? It looks like the same old SLR design as has been around for a long time. Other than it not having a removable back, what's special? Besides expanding functionality, that removable back on other cameras also makes it easier to clean the sensor. It is fine that the S2 is shaped like a DSLR and is not much bigger. But if you are trying to distinguish yourself in front of your clients from others who use a DSLR, it won't do that. It remains to be seen if photographers will find that it is easier to get good pictures with it than with other MF cameras. I don't think Leica will find success by simply trying to grab a piece of the existing small MF market. They need to expand that market and since the S2 is not really offering much in terms of additional features, it will have to come down to price. And since when has Leica built inexpensive cameras and lenses? I think Mamiya is in the position to come out with a new integrated ZD that has a better sensor (than the one in the old ZD) and price it low enough to undercut sales of the S2. The only trend I can see in the MF market is toward lower prices in order to expand the market for MF cameras. Separately, lets say that Leica sets up a new professional division of dealers, rental houses, repair facilities, etc. to support the S2. This will be logistically complicated and expensive. If it does not include the M system, aren't they flipping the bird to the longtime loyal Leica customers who have spent $8,000 for a camera and lens but have to wait weeks and months for warranty repairs or simple rangefinder adjustments? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 5, 2009 Share #272 Posted May 5, 2009 Well said Alan, I could add a ton on to that but like you said what's the point. I said enough already and wasted enough time on this and something that is not even a concern or thought to buy at least a year from now. By than there maybe so many other things out to concern ourselves with that is actually in our hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted May 5, 2009 Share #273 Posted May 5, 2009 Well said Alan, I could add a ton on to that but like you said what's the point. I said enough already and wasted enough time on this and something that is not even a concern or thought to buy at least a year from now. By than there maybe so many other things out to concern ourselves with that is actually in our hands. it is very hard for a company like leica to develop a forward looking technology and marketing strategy. basically they are (in the best sense of the word) a traditional old-fashioned german company, with high level mechanical/optical skills. in the last 10-15 years they proved first too stubborn and maybe too arrogant to jump on the digital band waggon and when they finally did it they found (surprise...) that they did not have the necessary technological base at their disposition. out came the m8, a clearly flawed (or if you prefer, restricted) product. not even the collectors were interested in it, only a few die-hards (in this forum...i also belonged to that group initially). at that point the wrong strategic decision was made, namely to insist on building complete photographic systems instead of concentrating on optics, as zeiss does for example. the s2 is clearly a backward looking product, without a real market segment for it to fill. just imagine, if phaseone decided to make a /phase Zd with their new 40mpx sensor...which would cost them very little research/money and they could sell it profiably even at low volumes. the S2 would be instantaneously dead....now it is alive only for rich amateurs. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted May 5, 2009 Share #274 Posted May 5, 2009 Perhaps it's just not the camera for some of you peeps....and if it fails miserably you really won't have missed much at all. Good thread for a balloon launch though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted May 5, 2009 Share #275 Posted May 5, 2009 Almoore didn't say anything out of line at all. Some people in here seem to think that they own this place because they have made a lot of posts. Kind of a silly way to think. Tone....It's his condescending tone. It started right away with "the fact is" and degraded from there...There's no need to converse with people like that just like there's no need to put pearls before swine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted May 5, 2009 Share #276 Posted May 5, 2009 I find it fascinating how many people can hold such firm opinions on a product that hasn't even been released yet. This thread belongs in Barnack's Bar, given the level of discourse I've been reading. Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted May 5, 2009 Share #277 Posted May 5, 2009 Granted the S2 hasn't yet been released for public purchase, but nonetheless the S2 has been officially announced and prototypes have been making rounds on the trade show circuit. That makes the S2 worthy of pre-release discussion - at least that has been the case for every officially announced pre-release camera I have seen discussed in internet forums since I have been following them in early 2000. And YES, every forum I have ever read has had many people that hold firm opinions on a product that hasn't been released yet - the S2 is not unique in that regard. Generally speaking, this forum has a history of civil discussions from many people of differing opinions, but for some reason it has gotten more caustic in the last couple of days. Maybe that is good, maybe that is bad. I am not sure at this point. Regardless, I am happy to continue a civilized discussion of the pros and cons of the S2 and its competitors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 6, 2009 Share #278 Posted May 6, 2009 Alan, Guy, same for me! I am done with all that speculations, want to see the S2 out and running first and being supported for at least 1 year very well. So if the S2 comes to market October 2009, this would mean earliest save buy in 2011. I have some patience and time, but not as much, so I need to buy my system - a proven system - in autumn 2009. What comes after from Leica will not concern me for some years to come All the others waiting and hoping for the S2 - HAVE FUN! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunil Posted May 6, 2009 Share #279 Posted May 6, 2009 Just checked out the Leaf Afi-II 7 made by Heidicke & Franke (the Rollei guys). The camera including waistfinder, 33MP back and 80mm AF Schneider lens can be had for $24K. This is a beautiful camera. Methinks the S2 should be fairly priced at $20K including a "normal" lens. However, I have no intention of putting my money where my mouth is for now as I will need these turkeys to drop 50% in value before I spring for either of these birds. In the meanwhile, I shall live vicariously through all you rich bastards on this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 7, 2009 Share #280 Posted May 7, 2009 Just checked out the Leaf Afi-II 7 made by Heidicke & Franke (the Rollei guys). The camera including waistfinder, 33MP back and 80mm AF Schneider lens can be had for $24K. This is a beautiful camera. Methinks the S2 should be fairly priced at $20K including a "normal" lens. However, I have no intention of putting my money where my mouth is for now as I will need these turkeys to drop 50% in value before I spring for either of these birds. In the meanwhile, I shall live vicariously through all you rich bastards on this forum. While the AFi-II 7 is a great camera, itis: 1) Really bulky and heavy 2) the lenses are even bigger 3) the future of the manufacturer is still unclear - I do not believe in any of these take over programs I have no glue if Leica will get the message and orient their prices on these types of cameras For me all these discussions are getting really irreal: companies who are bankrupt, companies who were bankrupt and have still no product out, etc etc. The only 2 one cn somehow rely are Hasselblad and Phase / Mamiya. Period. The rest is just hot air - at least for the next few months. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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