M8 & Pro Wedding photography

[dcsang]

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What's more' date=' how many of the photos in our wedding portfolios are truly 'decisive moments' ? Having just looked at every shot posted here I suggest that there's really only the yawn and the kiss posted by Riccis which were shots that would disappear in front of you before you got a second chance. All the others, and there are some really nice shots here, could be captured with any hand held camera with or without motor wind, IMO. [b']One of the reasons I'm going back to M's is because i want to slow down, want to be more contemplative, in spite of the risk of missing some shots that a DSLR (I) could capture because of it's speed.[/b] For example, pre-focusing for the walk back up the aisle might give two or three opportunities with an M7, but if someone steps in front with a phone cam, etc, etc the photo was lost and recovering is tough.

 

That's very interesting M'ate as I've had the same thoughts (specifically the portion in bold).

 

I do not shoot machine gun style and I often wonder what "value" those extra shots may add to the overall story of the bride and grooms day. I mean, some folks do shoot that way, and I've seen the amount of images that come back to the bride and groom and I sometimes ogle at the fact that, in a 10-12 hour shooting day, the bride/groom have to sift through hundreds (usually thousands) of images even after the initial edit and cull.

 

I had written previously that I thought it important to "slow down" and take the scene in first before taking out the camera and firing off shots.

 

I hope that by getting accustomed to using the M8 during these situations that I can, as M'ate stated, be more contemplative with my shooting in order to bring more keepers to the clients versus leaving them in the trash on my desktop.

 

Cheers,

Dave

[NB23]

I think we can stop being animals and actually start beign human beings. Why does one necessarily have to machine-gun instantly with a DLSR in his hands and go slowly, thoughtfuly, with a Leica M? It's beyond me.

 

What I like about Pro dslrs is their nervous nature, allowing me to capture any moment extremely efficiently without after-thought. A DSLR in my hand is like my hand itself: a part of my body, a part of my brain.

 

Shooting M cameras is something that I've been doing for something like 2 years now, and I thoroughly enjoy it (my personal site in my signature will prove this), even more then SLR shooting. But I think people have gone too far when they say that a very precise moment can only be captured with a Leica-M. If anyhting, it's the opposite. Especially with the M8's sluggishness. God knows how many shots I've missed because of it.

 

Anyhow, I'm a wedding shooter and I'm booked solid for some time to come. I planned to use the M8 here and there. I promise to give my thoughts and post images but I cannot guarantee I'll be positive about it. My main gripe is the M8 itself, not the M system. Film-Ms are made in heaven, I agree!

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[Jamie Roberts]

Dave--if you want to slow down, then the rangefinder or any manual focus camera is better, I think. The DMR is the same in this regard. Not that you *have* to machine gun with an AF dSLR, but a lot do...

 

I don't, regardless of what I'm shooting, though there is a temptation sometimes

 

On the other hand, I tend to favour the wides with the M8 and the DMR. With anything under a 50, you can literally shoot from the hip with hyperfocal practice (the 21 Elmarit stopped down to f4 is wonderful, as is the 19R). You literally can capture as fast as the camera can, and you don't even have your eye to the viewfinder

 

You *can* do this with an SLR, of course, but many of the newer lenses lack even hyperfocal marks, which makes it slower and more difficult.

 

@ Ned--I think you might be pleasantly surprised, especially if you like shooting film Ms. FWIW, I've never, ever noticably "missed" a moment with an M8 anymore than I have with a 1 series Canon (actually, due to the lack of good AF in low light, I missed many shots with Canon's system. They really need to make it better in the next go-round). I actually feel the opposite to you when I shoot--the M8 is part of my nervous system, and the dSLR is an interesting and effective impediment. I think that's the "mirror blink" factor but also sheer ergonomics too.

 

Having said that, in truth I still rely on AF for some things, notably the parts of the ceremony when the bride barrels down the aisle--but that's more because I like using a longer reach than the M8 has. So remember--play to its wide strengths and you might be delighted...

[Rolo]

Even when something totally unexpected happens it needs moments to develop and getting into position is important, but grabbing a shot can be more important.

 

Have great respect for PJ shooters who do it well and equal respect, maybe more for those who can organise a shoot in the middle of the wedding. Is shooting what's going on in front of you just plain record photography or reportage and when does it transfer from one to the other?

 

Some can do both and some can't do the other style, but sometimes the greatest respect goes to the little guy who has a small low budget wedding to shoot, where there's little going on, the B&G are not film stars and the kids are running riot. When that happens I think of the Elliott Erwitt shot of the guy smiling at the B&G - priceless.

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[NB23]

M'Ate - You can definitely get the shots with a DSLR but as I stated previously there are certain circumstances where I would take a sequence of images to ensure I get the one capture I was trying to record. There is nothing wrong with this approach, I just don't want to shoot hundreds of images taking place fractions of seconds apart.

 

Cheers,

 

Isn't this a bit of a stretch? How can a photographer miss a decisive moment with a tool that provides 37 ms shutter-lag and 55 ms viewfinder black-out? The human brain is noticeably slower then this so in the end, it's all and only subjective.

 

The people that shoot 32 images so they could get a single usable image have nothing to do with being photographers. Any respectable photographer can shoot 1 single winning image wit one single click, no matter the tool. It can be any camera, no need to necessarily be a Leica

 

Why I personally love the M system? It's simply because of the feeling in hand. The touch. The winding. Using film. It's not about "Better capturing" decisive moments. All IMO.

[Jamie Roberts]

Isn't this a bit of a stretch? How can a photographer miss a decisive moment with a tool that provides 37 ms shutter-lag and 55 ms viewfinder black-out? The human brain is noticeably slower then this so in the end, it's all and only subjective.{snipped}

 

It might be subjective but I have yet to see a truly bright VF in an AF body (like the DMR). And subjective or no, and maybe more important, I love being able to see more than I'm capturing--outside the frame--when I'm shooting with the 50 - 90s...

 

The downside of that is having wider lenses than 28 on the M8, but I can deal with that ok.

 

Yes, and dSLR AF systems are notoriously wonky too in my experience, right when you need them most, so I'm not sure the "photographer needs only one shot" is accurate in practice.

 

For example, I know at least one "Canon Explorer of Light" who teaches to fire 1 Series bodies in bursts of three shots (minimally) because it takes that long for the AF system to 1) find the target and 2) for the mirror slap to sette down on the high-speed cameras

 

I know another who advocates 6K to 10K shots per wedding, which is over what shoot by many, many thousands of shots

 

FWIW, I have seen the same thing with all my Canon AF bodies: shots 1 and 3 are misses for focus; shot 2 is right on the money. Can't explain it, but there it is.

 

With the M bodies, when you nail the focus the focus is indeed nailed

[M'Ate]

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I promise to give my thoughts and post images but I cannot guarantee I'll be positive about it. My main gripe is the M8 itself, not the M system. Film-Ms are made in heaven, I agree!

 

That'd be great Ned, love to hear it. The thread was started in a very positive way and surprisingly has stayed very much on track.

 

Leica are watching it and are keen to learn what wedding photographers want from the system as am I. We all love the M system, some of us worry about the M8 whilst others have good experience, but maybe can share the limits they've met, the compromises they've settled for, the fixes made, but overall what they do with it that inspires them.

 

Thanks to all for your contributions. A good read.

[Riccis]

Ned - Jamie pretty much summed up what I had to say (thanks, bud)...

 

I am heading to Mexico for this weekend's wedding and will check back on the thread upon my return next week. Again, thanks a lot for the great discussion and the inspirational images.

 

Cheers,

[ndjambrose]

If Leica are reading this then I ought to name one of my major frustrations with the camera.

 

The lack of PC sync socket really compromises the M8's effectiveness in some circumstances. The most common problem I have is wanting to use a flash with wide-angle shots, and having to work without an auxiliary finder. If there was a sync socket I could just mount a flash on a bracket and have both flash and accurate frame lines. To some extent with an ultra wide you can just point and guess, but while it works some of the time, often it doesn't, especially at certain distances or when requiring precise compositions. It's ironic that the universal WA finder is parallax corrected and a beautifully accurate tool, but entirely useless if you want to use flash.

 

The M8 is the only camera I've ever used where I sometimes have to choose between good framing or good light.

[Jamie Roberts]

If Leica are reading this then I ought to name one of my major frustrations with the camera.

 

The lack of PC sync socket really compromises the M8's effectiveness in some circumstances. {snipped}.

 

Amen and amen--though for me it's "how do I get a Pocket Wizard *and* a flash attached quickly to the M8? (the solution, for those interested, is to mount the Pocket Wizard on the hotshoe and the flash on a coldshoe bracket, then attach the PW "local flash" output to the PC synch on the flash...

 

Not too complicated at all

[bobbyrab]

I shoot about 50 weddings a year using a combination of M6ttl's and 5D's. If I'm honest I use the M's for my own self indulgence, I love using the camera, the view finder and all that, but it's mostly for me it's about the quality I get from the lenses, the only Canon lens that I use that approaches Leica quality is the 85 1.2. However, IMHO there are no shots I get with the M's that I couldn't get with the Canons, people will either notice you or they won't, regardless of what camera your looking through, but there are certainly shots I can get with an AF DSLR, digital or otherwise that I couldn't get with an M, if we take the example of the B&G walking down the isle towards you, I want to choose when I take the shots and not have some pre focused area where they may be looking down at the floor, plus I'll usually have the 85mm and a very usable iso of 1000 or above to avoid using flash, I just can't do this with the M's. That said, I could shoot a wedding purely with M's and I don't doubt I would be happy with the results, nor would I be critical of anyone who chooses to work this way, whatever works for you, but to say your getting shots that can't be achieved with an SLR is being a bit silly. Finally, having photographed weddings for around ten years, on film until a couple of years ago, the biggest single improvement in that time has been the higher ISO usabillity, and if it was for that alone I would go with a modern DSLR. Anyway 4 unobtrusive shots, 2 Leica 2 Canon.

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[Michael Tyler]

I think we can stop being animals and actually start beign human beings.

 

Ned, I'm confused why you would say this. Please, as a favor to the forum, be more gentle with how you phrase the messages you want to convey.

 

 

What I like about Pro dslrs is their nervous nature, allowing me to capture any moment extremely efficiently without after-thought.

 

On this, I agree with you. I still keep an SLR on one shoulder, and use it more often for the quick shoot-from-the-hip shots (although Jamie is right about the 21 Elmarit at f/4). I'm trying to understand the methodology behind the three-shot sequence that Riccis advocates, but I've had a good success rate nailing moments with one shot.

 

Here's an example from Sunday. The FOB gave her away and realized too late he was about to put a footprint on the veil, so he leapt. Not a good picture overall but a good example of timing the shot exactly like I intended. It was with a Rebel. Consider this my regrettably poor tribute to Henri Cartier Bresson.

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[dcsang]

<snip>The people that shoot 32 images so they could get a single usable image have nothing to do with being photographers. Any respectable photographer can shoot 1 single winning image wit one single click, no matter the tool. It can be any camera, no need to necessarily be a Leica </snip>

 

I have to agree.

 

I don't shoot "as many" images with my DSLRs as other photographers do - some look at me funny because of it - but then, because we're talking about weddings, there are some moments that are, in essence, "repeatable" from one wedding to the next (regardless of the cultural/religious differences between weddings).

 

For example, I know that at most Christian based weddings (Protestant and/or Catholic) there will be an exchange of vows and rings. So, I know when that moment will occur - it's all the "other moments" that are not repeated that we have to be able to anticipate and adjust to.

 

A lot of the posts in this thread that I've been reading are exactly how I've felt about wedding photography all along - I'm glad to see that I was not alone in my understanding and that I was not necessarily on the "periphery" when I thought "hmmm.... that's odd.. why would a person need to do that in order to get a good image???"

 

Cheers

Dave

[newyorkone]

I shoot about 50 weddings a year using a combination of M6ttl's and 5D's. If I'm honest I use the M's for my own self indulgence, I love using the camera, the view finder and all that, but it's mostly for me it's about the quality I get from the lenses, the only Canon lens that I use that approaches Leica quality is the 85 1.2. However, IMHO there are no shots I get with the M's that I couldn't get with the Canons, people will either notice you or they won't, regardless of what camera your looking through, but there are certainly shots I can get with an AF DSLR, digital or otherwise that I couldn't get with an M, if we take the example of the B&G walking down the isle towards you, I want to choose when I take the shots and not have some pre focused area where they may be looking down at the floor, plus I'll usually have the 85mm and a very usable iso of 1000 or above to avoid using flash, I just can't do this with the M's. That said, I could shoot a wedding purely with M's and I don't doubt I would be happy with the results, nor would I be critical of anyone who chooses to work this way, whatever works for you, but to say your getting shots that can't be achieved with an SLR is being a bit silly. Finally, having photographed weddings for around ten years, on film until a couple of years ago, the biggest single improvement in that time has been the higher ISO usabillity, and if it was for that alone I would go with a modern DSLR. Anyway 4 unobtrusive shots, 2 Leica 2 Canon.

 

Wonderful images!

[Rolo]

Always expect the unexpected ?

 

Leica MP 35mm Summicron

 

Rolo

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[Michael Tyler]

That's priceless, Rolo.

[Vieri]

Always expect the unexpected ?

 

Leica MP 35mm Summicron

 

Rolo

 

Great pic Rolo! What film did you use here?

[Rolo]

Great pic Rolo! What film did you use here?

 

Thanks, will not be shown in the Hall of Fame, but one that always brings a smile.

 

Had to scramble on hands and knees to dig the negs out to take a look. It was shot on Fuji Superia 400 and actually on a Leica M3 and probably a 50mm Summicron.

 

In a way I'm glad you asked because I have a discarded sample album that I come across from time to time and the tonality of the bride's preparation shots always stop me and I think WOW, wonder what film I used for that. Here's a sample and on screen it looks nowhere near as good as in print; in fact I'd be disappointed with a screen view today, but the prints !!*

 

The film I'm referring to is Fuji Superia 800. Because I only had one camera body, plus a Mam 7 backup, I changed over after the first film to Superia 400. Ended up with Superia because it was my first wedding (of my 'Professional career'), was unpaid and I was invited to shoot only 5 hours before the ceremony. Next day, I bought a Nikon D70 which made life so much easier, but the end result was not as good.

 

Sorry about the bio .... here's the 800 iso scan.

 

Rolo

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[Rolo]

And if you'll forgive me, on this digital thread, here's another from the same day, Fuji 400. The tonality is quite different from what I capture digitally today. Am I making sense here?

 

I can bend a digital file as good as the next man, but this is untouched and all the pics from the sequence are perfect matches - very little post work needed.

 

It was here that I learned to hand hold an M for 1/15 sec whilst holding breath and praying atthe same time.

 

I shot a wedding in the same church a month ago with a DSLR and probably from the very same spot and probably at an iso that spoiled the image. Must compare the files.

 

Rolo

 

as dear friend Jamie said : With the M bodies, when you nail the focus the focus is indeed nailed

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Riccis]

Excellent image with the kids, Rolo. Thanks for sharing.