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M8 & Pro Wedding photography


M'Ate

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Seeking advice here on dropping DSLR shooting of weddings and using the M8 as my primary tool. Like to hear from any wedding Pro's here on how they integrate the M8 into their work and how many they use on the day and what's in the trunk for back-up?

 

Going on, how many bodies & batteries do they carry for a full wedding and how many frames do they shoot? Is there great confidence in equipment, or do precautions need to be taken to ensure the finished product for the client? Any other advice?

 

I'm an experienced wedding photographer, doing 2 or 3 weddings a month (1,000 frames each), on a Pro DSLR + zoom lenses, but I used to shoot weddings on film M's, have the lenses still and want to get back to the small package. Pro's using M8's for weddings seem to be a minute proportion of the total and I haven't found a nationally recognized Pro using a digital rangefinder for weddings, or even serious portraiture. Be glad to be put right on that.

 

Appreciate any comments on this. This is about RF's and not an RF v DSLR thread, nor about why one lens is better than another, but a genuine call for guidance from you experienced guys.

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Hi - I don't do weddings for a living, but I've done a few + I do a lot of event and social photography. What I've found has been that the M8 works beautifully alongside a full frame DSLR (in my case the 5D or 1DS M2). A combination I use all the time is the 28 Summicron ASPH on the M8 + an 85 1.2L lens on the Canon. It feels very natural...

 

My 2 cents would not be to depend on one system - especially when it's business critical! Not because the M8 is not reliable (touching wood, no problems on two bodies in the last 18 months), but because different systems have different strengths (and sometimes when I'm having to work really quickly it's nice to be able to slap on a fast zoom...)

 

The other issue, pretty obviously, is going to be flash. For me it's a contradiction to use it much with the M8, but totally natural as an extension of the Canon system...

 

Good luck with your decisions!

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Pro's using M8's for weddings seem to be a minute proportion of the total and I haven't found a nationally recognized Pro using a digital rangefinder for weddings' date=' or even serious portraiture. Be glad to be put right on that.[/quote']

 

A current member of the Forum, Riccis Valladare, recently featured in Rangefinder Magazine:

http://www.riccisvalladares.net/downloads/rangefinder-mag-apr-08.pdf

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M'Ate

 

I have done one wedding with one M8, a 90 Summicron and CV 35 Nokton.

As I wasn't the official photographer I held back a bit, resulting in 300 something photos, my one battery would have probably been good enough for another 100 photos so I'd assume if you averagely shoot a 1000 photos a second battery would be a good bet.

 

What I have found is that a wedding has lots of surprising moments as you sure can confirm and you will find many times where the mounted lens is not the one you need but as you have been shooting weddings with film M's you sure know that already.

What I am saying is if I were the official photographer for a wedding I wouldn't feel safe to only have 1 M8 with the need to change lenses lots of times during the day.

 

So my best bet would be 2 M8s, 2 additional batteries and whatever lenses you see fit.

The photos I have shot on the last wedding were stunning and the wedding couple was pleasantly surprised. I will shoot another wedding this Saturday and I'll be taking my M8 along with a M7. Why that? Because I find that a M8 shutter is relatively loud and taking pictures with a M8 in a church can be disturbing (there are a handful of SLRs which are more silent).

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...having 2 systems makes sense but i did a wedding in april totally with the m8...the canon never came out of the bag...you can see some of the pics here....mike.cetta.photos :: Sheena & Blendi 4/19/08

 

mike

Mike Cetta | Fine Art Photographer

 

Mike - sort of on topic - how did you post process the images on your site? Interesting, and some very lovely, but surely not vanilla output from Leica DNGs... ?

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Chris,

 

...i always shoot in RAW and for a project like this I then do a basic edit of the whole shoot in Lightroom...The basic pack I gave the couple was these basic edits converted into high res jpegs...then i picked these 25 (the ones on my site) and worked on them in CS3 where i do a lot more PP work including using NIk color efex filters which are fantastic and used for all my pp work.....

 

...the files though from the m8 are great and give one all the info one could want to create the kind of final pic that matches your vision and style...I had the ids ii and bought the m8 a year ago as what i hoped to be my street camera...but once i saw how good the files were sold the canon and invested in leica and cv lenses....have never looked back...hope that helps...

 

mike

Mike Cetta | Fine Art Photographer

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A 28-35-50 Tri Elmar would be ideal, as you would not have to change lenses and could cover tables, formaal, and most candid opportunities.

 

The max f4 is not an issue if you use flash, and for most formals, tables, or candids you want siome depth of field.

 

A second body is a must even for the most reliable equipment, which M8 is not, ( I have had no problems with mine, but would never be on a paid assignment with less than total redundancy no matter what I was using). Mounting a 75 or 90 as long as you had the second body could not hurt, a 90 summicron would enable some available light candids.

 

The best ( and only ) integrated flash that is usable ( for minimum power ) is the Metz 54-4. To use it in TTL, the following is needed.

 

Firmware 1201 - otherwise both white bal. and sync reliability are spotty.

 

IR filters - otherwise exposure is usually wrong.

 

Use flash in GNC mode, it then is a pre-flash ttl like nikon or canon.

 

only nimh batteries, or preferably one of metz battery packs for recycle speed.

 

a larger metz flash is even better but looks silly on an m8

 

the need for powerful flash is to overload the horrific white balance of typical wedding halls which often mix tungsten and flourescent in multiple spots and will look often unprofessional no matter what you do in post-processing.

 

In short, use the same techique that you would use with any equipment.

 

I hope this is useful ... Harold

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Seeking advice here on dropping DSLR shooting of weddings and using the M8 as my primary tool. Like to hear from any wedding Pro's here on how they integrate the M8 into their work and how many they use on the day and what's in the trunk for back-up?

 

Going on' date=' how many bodies & batteries do they carry for a full wedding and how many frames do they shoot? Is there great confidence in equipment, or do precautions need to be taken to ensure the finished product for the client? Any other advice?

 

I'm an experienced wedding photographer, doing 2 or 3 weddings a month (1,000 frames each), on a Pro DSLR + zoom lenses, but I used to shoot weddings on film M's, have the lenses still and want to get back to the small package. Pro's using M8's for weddings seem to be a minute proportion of the total and I haven't found a nationally recognized Pro using a digital rangefinder for weddings, or even serious portraiture. Be glad to be put right on that.

 

Appreciate any comments on this. This is about RF's and not an RF v DSLR thread, nor about why one lens is better than another, but a genuine call for guidance from you experienced guys.[/quote']

 

M'ate:

 

My wedding kit is made up of 3 M8s and 2 M7s (for the clients that want me to shoot film only). I have a spare battery per camera and use about a battery and a half on my main body while the second body only uses one battery since it does not get that much use. The third body and a film M always stay in the bag as a backup, but I've been lucky to never have a failure. I cycle the bodies every wedding to ensure they get about the same use.

 

Since you mention you used to shoot film Ms, the move to the M8 should be pretty straight forward. Just ensure you read about all the known issues (which IMHO are not such a big deal as some folks make it to be, at least for documentary wedding photography) and shoot RAW.

 

Even when I was using DSLRs, I was never a machine gunner and my very tight edits yield around 300-500 images per wedding. I just shot a wedding 100% on film two weeks ago on 10 rolls (and not because of cost) and it was the perfect coverage. I try to make every shot count with digital since I don't want to spend too much time postprocessing, using a rangefinder camera helps a lot since I always can tell whether I got the shot I wanted or not.

 

Believe it or not, there are a lot of wedding pros also using M8s including fellow member Jamie Roberts (James Roberts Photography - Weddings, Portraits & Special Events) and Andrew Niesen from LaCour (LaCour | Photography | Wedding Photography | Atlanta | New York | Miami).

 

Please feel free to post any questions you may have.

 

Cheers,

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Appreciate the responses guys. Thanks.

 

Chris - was hoping to relieve my kit bag of one set of lenses in the '35mm' range and maybe more to provide $$'s for further M8 bodies. Hence the reason for considering stand-alone M gear. Be happy to mix M film and M digital, but won't be going to M8 if I keep the DSLR. Have other digital and film outfits for other shoots and back-up from the trunk. I'm trying to concentrate on the stuff I carry at the wedding.

 

Mike - I'm purty confident the Canon will not be used if I had a digital M solution. Can se the Leica lenses wide open AND can hold them down to 1/4 second if need. At 400 iso that's a big light gathering advantage over a DSLR with an f2.8 lens, or an f1.4 lens that needs to be closed for quality.

 

Leicamateur - think you defined the battery needs pretty well. I do chimp quite a bit as I like to see the histogram and I know Solms put the LCD there for that very reason. Always shot film M's in pairs. Lens changes are a pain under pressure and 2x36 exposure was always better than 1x36. M8 + M7 is very real option, despite work flow inefficiencies of mixing the two.

 

Harold - Thanks for the flash stuff.

 

Riccis - Useful input. I've never had a client ask me for film or digital only. They see my sample albums and just want that quality. They pay good money and I give good quality. (as a side note I can never understand those photographers who want to finish the post processing in a morning, yet want top dollar for the job). Have no issue about shooting the M8, done quite a bit of it, but there was too many issues early on for me. I could never tolerate an M8 body going back to Solms for two months and I'm still not comfortable that lens calibration won't be an issue, but my desire to get away from DSLR zoom lenses is becoming petty strong too. A real possibility is to shoot film with 3 M7 bodies. I'd still want digital images for the album design, but that's max 100'ish scanned negs.

 

Pristine M7's are now $2,000 so there would be mucho cash for even more lenses. Riccis, would you prefer to shoot film if the customer didn't care about the input ? 2x M8's plus filters, plus another M film back-up is an item for any small business. Not a problem if it's the way to go as it's paid for, but I detect there's still some fears over reliability in the responses above and that far outweighs any cost issues, IMO.

 

Cheers guys.

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Weddings are my main business, and I love the M8. My kit is a 21 pre-asph, 35 1.2 Nokton, and 90 cron pre-APO. I've never gone through more than two batteries at a wedding, usually shooting around 1000-1200 images total between the M8 and my backup Canons. I keep one Canon on my body along with the M8, partly a confidence thing, partly because the Canon can catch quick events while shooting from the hip. The M8 is for my deliberately composed photography. I imagine that I'll eventually drop the SLR's altogether and only shoot Leca.

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I shoot weddings professionally with an M8 as my primary camera. Backup is usually another M8 or an Epson R-D1 and then I also bring a 5D which stays with an assistant unless I need it.

 

Overall, I love the M8 for this work but there are some caveats.

 

1) If the light is very low and I'm going to be up around ISO 1600 or higher, I prefer the 5D simply because the files are cleaner.

 

2) I sometimes have lighting sources in the frame when I'm shooting weddings by existing light (which is my norm). The IR-cut filters can tend to flare and this can be exacerbated by a lens that is not so well coated. Under these circumstances, I tend to prefer higher contrast lenses with the best possible coatings (this includes most of the recent ASPH lenses, the Zeiss ZMs, etc.) Wedding lenses I particularly like on the M8 are the 28 Summicron ASPH, 35/1.4 Lux ASPH and Leica 50/1.4 Lux ASPH *or* CV 50/1.5 Nokton. I don't filter the R-D1 (though there's some reason to) and with it I also like the CV 28/1.9 Ultron and CV 35/1.7 Ultron. I haven't yet shot a wedding with a CV 35/1.2 Nokton but that probably would work well even if filtered for the M8.

 

3) The method for changing ISO is a pain when one is working quickly. I made great efforts to get Leica to improve this but nothing has been done to date.

 

Otherwise, its a great wedding camera if you like RFs and working with primes. For flash I freehand a corded Vivitar 285 with a remote sensor on the hot shoe.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

http://www.still-photo.net

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Hi M'ate

 

I've been using exclusively a single M8 body plus 3 or 4 lenses (CV 15, Nokton 35/1.2, Leica PA 90 cron & 135 elmar) to shoot weddings professionally for the past year. Back up is a Leica R8 film body & two lenses which has never come out of the bag...IOW, no reliability probs at all so far with the M8 (touching wood, obviously).

 

I'm using a Metz 54 flash (mentioned previously) which felt horribly unbalanced & heavy at first but after a while I got used to it. My advice would be to forget TTL and use it in auto mode (you need to manually change aperture setting on the flash but don't have the annoying, moment-spoiling pre-flash to deal with).

 

I generally pack 3 batteries for the M8 but turn off auto-review so I usually get about 350-400 shots per battery, even with a little chimping. Taking about 80-90 pics per hour, so about 1000 for a full days coverage.

 

Personally, I haven't found the lens changing aspect a problem at weddings as I always used to do it shooting film anyway...I guess the trick is, and you probably know this, trying to anticipate events and then working quickly & within the time you've got.

 

Finally, I find that the 'solidness' of the M8 helps in dealing with those pesky photography-enthusiast guests who always seem to be getting in the way...a simple cry of "your going home in a red cross ambulance" followed by a crack to the head from the Leica swung rapidly from the end of it's strap, soon puts things in order...A cheaper, plastic camera wouldn't be nearly as effective : )

 

Seriously tho', the M8 is fabulous for weddings, & if you're concerned about high ISO noise, use some fast lenses and be careful not to underexpose at 640 & 1250 as mentioned many times already, and then there's always Noise Ninja...Here is just some of my stuff if you're interested @ www.weddingpaparazzi.com.au

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

Evad

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Riccis - Useful input. I've never had a client ask me for film or digital only. They see my sample albums and just want that quality. They pay good money and I give good quality. (as a side note I can never understand those photographers who want to finish the post processing in a morning' date=' yet want top dollar for the job). Have no issue about shooting the M8, done quite a bit of it, but there was too many issues early on for me. I could never tolerate an M8 body going back to Solms for two months and I'm still not comfortable that lens calibration won't be an issue, but my desire to get away from DSLR zoom lenses is becoming petty strong too. A real possibility is to shoot film with 3 M7 bodies. I'd still want digital images for the album design, but that's max 100'ish scanned negs.

 

[/quote']

 

M'ate - My clients give me 100% creative freedom and the only past clients that insisted on me shooting film are the ones on the creative field (art directors, designers and from the film industry).

 

If you decide to start working with Leicas, you should become part of their Professional Services program (just like CPS or NPS) where your repairs will be prioritized. The repair turnaround if you send the gear to Solms is 2 days (it actually takes longer to go to and from Solms) or you can also send it to NJ. I've sent lenses for 6-bit coding and one of my cameras for adjustment and both times I had my equipment back in a week.

 

Not having to bring DSLRs to a wedding is so nice and you will never think that I am wedding photographer if you see me at my weddings. You back will also thank you :)

 

When I shoot film, I overnight the film to my lab in L.A. (Richard Photo Lab) and they process, print proofs and scan all the work. Like I state before I enjoy shooting film due to the simplified workflow. All the work that gets published is always shot with the M8s.

 

While I own pretty much every Leica lens, I love simplicity and most of the times only bring a 21/1.8, Nocti and 75 Summi. As far as flash, I have a little Leica flash that barely comes out of the bag (most of the times used only for the editorial work).

 

The film Ms are so good that you only need two if you want to shoot film.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

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G'day M'ate

 

I use an M8 for weddings. I changed over from DSLRs about 6 months ago. I generally shoot about 400-500 images during the day. I use a CZ21/2.8, a 1950s Nikkor-S.C. 50/1.4 in Leica Screw mount and an early 1970s chrome 90mm Elmarit. I use a Metz 44-MZ-2 off-camera with a Nikon SC-17 cable for the rare times I want flash. Mostly I use reflectors and available light.

 

I'm often blown away by just how lovely the shots are that come out of the M8 - even with the old glass. A couple of caveats, though, from where I stand:

- Having to run all the shots from the CZ21 through Cornerfix is a pain. Many of my wide angle shots end up as B&Ws!

- Get the most modern lens coatings you can. As much as I love the Nikkor's character, I'll probably change it for a CV50 Nokton, because flare is often a problem.

- Don't let noise bother you. A well exposed shot at ISO1250 looks great.

 

Go for it. I don't regret a second.

 

Kevin

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I began using the M8 occasionally for weddings about 9 months ago. Loved it. For the last 7 weddings I've used only three M bodies - M8, M7 and MP. I don't have any complaints about the M8, although there are a few things that you need to bear in mind:

 

The first is batteries. On an average wedding I'll easily go through 3 batteries just in one M8 body. They're not necessarily all fully discharged, but I tend to switch them out when I'm down to 30% power. Rapid shooting - say 6 or 8 consecutive shots - can result in sudden battery drain if the power levels are on the low side.

 

The second is buffer write times. The M8 is fast enough if you shoot DNG only, but if using DNG+JPG it's interminably slow. I like JPG previews as I think and shoot primarily in black and white and it's handy for checking tones and light, but when I know I'm reaching a crucial point where things are happening quickly I switch to DNG only.This works okay and I've never missed a shot due to buffer writes.

 

The third is white balance. While the new firmware is much better than the last, the white balance is still not entirely consistent between consecutive frames. Not a big problem if you have a good digital workflow, but inconvenient if you were hoping to avoid much post-processing.

 

Lastly there's an occasional problem with internal reflections from the UV/IR filter in strong sidelight conditions. It's only happened once or twice and hasn't bothered me - in fact I liked the effect - but if you're a purist you might think differently.

 

On the upside, the M8 works really well with film bodies as an overall package. My wedding kit includes the 90/75 Summicron, 50 Noctilux, 35 1.4 Nokton and 21 2.8 Biogon. I haven't needed anything wider or longer as venues in the UK tend to be quite similar and are quite well suited to these lengths. A lens on each camera and one in each pocket means I can stay mobile. When I shot on medium format, just one lens weighed similar to my full set now. The gap in the line-up is a macro. I shoot moderate range close-ups with the M8 and and a fast prime, and leave the very close stuff to my partner who shoots with a 105mm Nikon macro.

 

Overall I can recommend the M8. It's small and discrete, and if your style is PJ you'll find it works well. The battery life issue is more than compensated for by the small form factor. A few batteries will fit in my pocket, but not a DSLR :-)

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<snip>Seeking advice here on dropping DSLR shooting of weddings and using the M8 as my primary tool. Like to hear from any wedding Pro's here on how they integrate the M8 into their work and how many they use on the day and what's in the trunk for back-up?

 

Going on' date=' how many bodies & batteries do they carry for a full wedding and how many frames do they shoot? Is there great confidence in equipment, or do precautions need to be taken to ensure the finished product for the client? Any other advice?</snip>[/quote']

 

As already stated, Riccis is one pro who uses the M8 all the time. He knows his gear and uses it very well. Also, his clients know what to "expect" from the gear - and, as I'm sure you're well aware, client expectations are a huge thing when dealing with weddings.

 

I'll be trying my (just returned from Solms) M8 out this weekend as I have a wedding to second shoot. I have a full time job and while I have been told that I'm perfectly "capable" at doing weddings full time, there's that little voice inside of me that needs the security of a steady pay cheque. :D So I second shoot with a few, select, full time pros. I will be attempting to use the M8 for, obviously, candids and, likely, some groom portraits before the wedding. The 5D and affiliated lenses will be used for the ceremony and detail photos.

 

I do know that Jeff Ascough, a long time Leica M user, did try to incorporate and switch to the M8 but didn't find it "professional enough" for his purposes. That said, it doesn't mean that the camera can't be used professionally, especially for weddings. I just think it is going to take me, personally, some time to become accustomed to manually focusing and not being able to have the "longer" lenses that I may be accustomed to.

 

Cheers,

Dave

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Hey Dave--nice to hear from you! You'll have to let us know how the work goes with the M8.

 

I think you'll find the M8 is stellar if it's working properly, though be carfeful when using the wides of very bright lights on the vertical borders because you might get the green streak artifact... (a bit tricky to predict, and the reason Jeff A. won't use his for weddings, IIRC...but in 18 months of weddings & portraits I've only ever seen it three or four times).

 

I love my M8, but there's a time and place for dSLRs too at a wedding. I've been using my DMR more and more because the combo of DMR and R glass is fabulous; like Sean I also shoot with a 5d because high ISO flexibility and auto focus is also, for me, a genuine requirement at times.

 

Having said that, I find the M8 very very easy to focus manually in all conditions--when everything is working, it's brilliant, and putting a 21 (28 FOV) on the M8 makes almost for a point and shoot in terms of focus. But it just doesn't have the reach of a 70-200 or a 180, even though a 90mm on the M8 is very nice too (though you need a magnifier, probably... I do).

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Wow, glad to finally see all the wedding photographers popping up.

 

Two comments, on flash and on macro. For flash, I bought an old Nikon SB-20, which looks like it came out of the movie Tron, and though it's a fatty it's also shorter than most flashes so it better fits the M8 weight balance. It rotates for bounce, has plenty of power for receptions, auto-thyristor, and it's dirt-freakin'-cheap. I paid $35. You can find them on ebay for $20. Unscrew the bottom plate and pull out all of the pins except the middle one - easy as pie - and you've got yourself a non-dedicated flash.

 

For those who do the occasional macro work at a wedding, the Canon G9 is ideal. Small, cheap, and from my POV it's optimal image quality is in its macro mode. The small chip increases depth of field, but at macro distance you still have nice bokeh (akin to a 50mm portrait at 2.8). The wide perspective gives a feel of being "right there" face to face with the detail. I think it's a brilliant camera, and compliments the Leica's deficiencies (macro and 200mm FOV in a pinch).

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