LEICA ANNOUNCEMENT: New Leica Products - LEICA M8 / M System

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Peter the processing engine of the M8 makes those correction to the Raw and the Jpeg. It's all done internally. So yes your raw gets the correction from the camera . very interesting and that means Raw converter will not matter

[azzo]

was impressed that Leica kept faithful to the previous Ms with the digital M8.The new 28MM..i am not so sure. to tell you the truth, i am not so much into digital cameras. I love my M6TTL . But to all digital lovers, i am sure that you are thrilled.

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[sean_reid]

BTW read Sean's review, well done my friend

 

 

Professionally speaking making the switch to leica was one of my best gear decisions in 31 years

 

Thanks Guy. As you know, I agree with you about the EV and ISO controls and Leica certainly knows how I feel about that as well. Other than that and weather seals, it's a wonderful camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[kdemas]

Just in case some of our friends from Leica are taking a peek into the forum... Congratulations! This is exactly what was portrayed by Leica officials last yesr at the Leica Historical Society meeting I attended and they have done a superb job making it a true M in a new era.

 

Obviously we all have to see the results, the proof is in the images, but I for one am very happy that I have my name in the hat for one already. It's a great day and, hopefully, a product release that will help secure the future of Leica for many years to come.

 

Kent

 

Hmmm... now I have to decide what I'm going to sell to help finance this baby

[sean_reid]

Sean, read your review, very comprehensive.

 

A concern you have - which I also covered in my own posts here - is the access to what you call the digital controls (mainly ISO, EV+/-, WB), both setting and checking them. The nightmare scenario is that you switch to ISO 2500 for a couple of shots and forget to set it back and without realising it, spend your whole day shooting at ISO 2500.

 

I was at the new Mercedes-Benz museum in Stuttgart on Sunday taking more than 400 shots with my D2X. I was frequently adjusting the ISO and EV, and can see this will be a pain on the M8.

 

I would have thought that this item should have been caught in development as a result of feedback from real-world users. What I always feared would happen, has happened. Leica have been so keen not to upset the traditionalists and keep the design as clean as possible that the usability of the camera has been compromised.

 

It may be that there's insufficient space under the top cover for a bigger LCD, maybe it was too late in the development process but the relative difficulty in using these functions is a pity.

 

I wish you had pounded the table a bit harder!

 

Not a show stopper for me, but it could have been better.

 

Hi Mark,

 

They asked for my input early on but beyond that I wasn't involved in the development. I offered to work as a consultant to them but I imagine they didn't think that was needed. If I had been able to influence them early in the design process, the "digital controls" would be at least as good as those on the R-D1, the body would have seals and a select number of M lenses would be available with gaskets. Maybe they'll pull me in earlier for the next model.

 

The M8 is a superb product and it will become my primary camera but the one thing that seems to have been missing in its development process was input from working professional digital photographers. Early word I'm hearing is that pro photojournalists who've seen samples really like the camera but are not crazy about the controls for digital functions. What's unfortunate is that it would have been fairly easy to remedy that in early design.

 

Phil Askey's review is almost completely positive and that may be because he isn't a working photographer and may not fully appreciate what aspects matter most when one is earning a living with his or her camera. I tried to be objective about the M8 even though I really like the camera and the company.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

It's obvious that this camera and all digital cameras that have less than a 35mm sensor are stop gaps in the digital war. The life cycle of products in this age of CAD/CAM can now be measured in 1-2 years. The instant you purchase one of these cameras, there is a more advanced design waiting in the wings. In fact, increased profitablity is now built into the design cycle as the expectation is that you will purchase the new design and get rid of your old product. 10 Mega Pixels is not that great compared to film. The need for a tri focul lens with an exterior finder is a stop gap measure, some would say half a$$ed.

I have long viewed these type of products as Pro/Consumer cameras. The so called digital lenses that accompany these cameras are not suited for low light applications and are generally not constructed to professional standards. In this case though, I expect the lens to be constructed to Leica standards.

For my M lenses and for my Nikon lenses also, I will wait until full frame cameras are available and not be sacrificed upon the leading edge of technology.

Its a very nice camera but its not going to replace my M3, M6 and M7. My M7 with Leica M Motor is as good as I have ever used in a rangefinder. Of course the drawback is that I don't have instant gratification of viewing the product and can't readily email the picture. But I believe much of the market for this sort of thing is manufactured and not needed. I can see the need for digital news photography and product photography but for serious work, I need high resolution and large apertures. -Dick

 

That argument has been many times but its not quite true if the camera itself is exceptional. A four-year old Canon 1Ds is as useable as it ever was and still very competent - not because it's FF but because it was very capable from the start. That camera will still be useable for professional work several years from now.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

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Nice oxymoron... functional, Cannon...

 

C'mon Albert... Oy Vey, enough already <G>

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hi Mark,

 

The M8 is a superb product and it will become my primary camera but the one thing that seems to have been missing in its development process was input from working professional digital photographers. Early word I'm hearing is that pro photojournalists who've seen samples really like the camera but are not crazy about the controls for digital functions. What's unfortunate is that it would have been fairly easy to remedy that in early design.

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

 

I wished i was in that design meeting.

[sean_reid]

You have to go to http://www.reidreviews.com It's a paid subscription, but his review is so much more in depth than dpreview's and it's worth every penny for the M8 review alone, let alone all the other gems he has available in the subscription area.

 

Hat's off to Sean for an excellent review.

 

Thanks Allan.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

Early word I'm hearing is that pro photojournalists who've seen samples really like the camera but are not crazy about the controls for digital functions. What's unfortunate is that it would have been fairly easy to remedy that in early design.

 

Well hopefully Stefan Daniels and Andreas Kaufmann are reading this to gauge reaction. Too late to expand the display on the top of the camera but they could look at late firmware changes.

 

I think it is REALLY important to be able to press SET and see displayed all the current "digital control" settings on a single page without having to select each menu item in turn. Press SET, see them, press the shutter release to clear. That would at least make it easy to see the state of the camera at a glance with only one button depression.

 

As for setting the parameters, the camera should pre-select the last menu item used when you press "MENU" or "SET". It's fine to order the items in decreasing likely usage but years of doing this sort of stuff has told me the most likely item a user will select is the same as the one they last selected.

 

I think I'm also concerned that the flash settings are buried in the configuration menu and not in the SET menu. You may well want to change flash settings from shot to short according to the lighting conditions.

[humanized_form]

the lack of dedicated ISO and EV controls is unfortunate and i wonder why Leica decided to design it that way, but when i consider how i use my M7 it really isn't such a big deal for me. i have pretty much been living with ISO 100 slide film, so i think i can get by with a few clicks to change the ISO. haha. then again i'm not using my camera for customers and under deadline, i use it for fun.

 

regarding the lack of dedicated EV control, the workarounds are there for anyone who wants to use them. i prefer the quick 1/2 stop tweaks of the aperture ring (or 1/3 stops if you use Zeiss lenses). simple and effective.

 

i would say the biggest drawback for me is not knowing what the ISO, EV, WB etc settings are without turning on the LCD. i really was hoping for some of this info in the viewfinder display.

 

i don't see anyone else jumping to produce digital rangefinders. Zeiss has said not yet anyway. the M8 is probably gonna be it for some years to come, it is what it is. my preorder is in. this is gonna be fun!

[sean_reid]

Many thanks to Sean for still another brilliant review.-- how boring

 

If you don't subscribe to Sean's site, you should. Don't let him hear this but it's worth more than the subscription price.

 

I just bot a 24mm f2.8 asph -- strictly based on the images I saw in his review of the lens. It didn't hurt that Puts thinks the thing walks on water: icing on the cake.

 

I have read all the stuff that's out there and wonder why the DR lens is on the no-hit list. This is a disappointment to me, as is the lack of ISO display on the camera top. As I mentioned in a previous post, this has come to bug me more and more with the D2. I hope the simple setting goes part way to alleviating this shortcoming. But, who are we kidding -- gimme the camera!

 

I'm first in line at my dealer's and I just ordered the accesory grip that Sean describes in his review. I would say I can't wait to see the pictures, but I really know how gorgeous they are going to be. We've seen a preview on the DMR, after all.

 

Question(s): Am I inferring correctly, Sean, that the cameras will be shipped with the second version of the software? You say you can't post any pix taken with the first version. I hope that means we-the-faithful will get the newer version (it seems to make sense, but it's safer to be stupid). And, I wonder what the software changes will be. Do you think there will be any change to the RAW capture settings?

 

Sean, thanks again both for maintining your silence so Leica would give you a camera to test and thus we could all get the first-class review on your site, and for providing this resource for us all. I'm glad they're only bringing out one M product. I've been saving forever and will just make it.

 

Regards to all,

 

Hi Bill,

 

First of all, thanks very much. You can be absolutely sure that the production cameras will have the firmware that's been tweaked and re-tweaked, etc. They care very much about getting the best possible file quality out of this camera.

 

I do have a couple firmware ideas I'm going to run by them (regarding the ISO and EV controls) and I'll see what happens. It can't hurt to try.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest stevenrk]

You have to go to http://www.reidreviews.com It's a paid subscription, but his review is so much more in depth than dpreview's and it's worth every penny for the M8 review alone, let alone all the other gems he has available in the subscription area.

 

Hat's off to Sean for an excellent review.

 

Well said. Very balanced review. Look forward to reading part 2.

 

Best, Steven

[sean_reid]

So that means to review each of the key settings, you have to select each in turn? That's awful. I had expected that you would be able to press SET and see each of the key settings with their currently selected values without having to select each menu item (setting) in turn.

 

Not good.

 

Cannot believe the real-world photographers who participated in this let it go through. Do we know who did the firmware? Is it Leica internal or sub-contracted out? Whichever it is, they need some help...

 

No, no...they are all displayed at once (all 6 with a press of the set button). What you expected is correct.

 

As far as "letting this go through", I myself had nothing to do with that. Leica USA just asked for my input early on and I gave it. I wasn't part of those meetings in Germany.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[PeterJWhite]

Peter the processing engine of the M8 makes those correction to the Raw and the Jpeg. It's all done internally. So yes your raw gets the correction from the camera . very interesting and that means Raw converter will not matter

 

But what if you don't get your old lenses coded? Is there a way to get the correction? Can you select your lens in the camera's menu? Or is the only option getting the lens coded?

 

Thanks,

 

PJW

[sean_reid]

I wished i was in that design meeting.

 

Me too. <G> Still, they did a wonderful job in most respects.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

A) I think it is REALLY important to be able to press SET and see displayed all the current "digital control" settings on a single page without having to select each menu item in turn. Press SET, see them, press the shutter release to clear. That would at least make it easy to see the state of the camera at a glance with only one button depression.

 

As for setting the parameters, the camera should pre-select the last menu item used when you press "MENU" or "SET". It's fine to order the items in decreasing likely usage but years of doing this sort of stuff has told me the most likely item a user will select is the same as the one they last selected.

 

 

Mark,

 

Again, that *is* how it currently works, both A and B. The firmware programming associated with the set button is very well designed.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[comapedrosa]

Ah, more choices: 28mm/f2.8 vs. 35mm/f1.4. Different animals. Nifty 35mm-equiv. daylight delight vs. the-right-choice 50mm-equiv.? (right 'cause it's fast, it's 50mm, and it'll be 35mm on the M9... if that makes sense). What is one's style? As a comment about the fact that with film we used to keep ISO at 100 all the time anyway made me think: why not let the tools prompt some exploring of new styles, of true style? My venerable Latin prof. used to say (long, long ago): "Whose style? Don't believe that you have a style, that would be very pretentious".... hummm, I guess I'm very excited and very tired.

[mgcd]

I'm a truly happy guy

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[kidigital]

Conrad, I agree with you completely. A few minor conveniences are soon forgotten as you become acquainted any new system. But, the upside is incredible ... amazing utility paired with incredible optics.

 

By the way, I don't think I've ever complimented you on your wonderful work...nice job.

 

Kurt