M9 Redux

[jaapv]

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Lee,

I mean: it is senseless to compare RF cameras with SLR cameras, even on picture quality. First one chooses the system, then the camera within the system. Unfortunately there is only the RD1 to compare the M8 to, and that makes little sense either. The fact is the that the M8 is both the worst and the best camera of its kind on the market. If it happens to turn out files that are comparable to high-end DSLRs that is a happy bonus, if it doesn't that is too bad because there is nothing better.

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[delander †]

Vive la difference!

 

Jeff

[Guest jimmy pro]

Lee,

I mean: it is senseless to compare RF cameras with SLR cameras, even on picture quality.

 

Horses for courses. Some people might be into picture quality more than the zen of their gear.

[jaapv]

Zen for gear or horses for courses. Make up your mind

I want the best possible quality for RF. Guess.....

[RSL]

I know I sound as if I’m against Leica but I’m not. As I’ve said many times on these threads. I really wanted an M8 and I came very close to buying one. I’m impressed with the quality of the images the camera produces, but I’m not happy about its flaws, and though I’d love to be able to carry the M8 with a couple of lenses up those trails above Goldfield, if I were to get to the top of a hill, set up for a shot, and have the camera lock up on me, I’d probably throw it down one of the many deserted mine shafts up there.

 

I’ve waited a year and a half for Leica to “fix” the M8, always hoping they’d do it, but though they’ve fixed a few of the inexcusable initial problems it’s become evident that the only thing that’s going to “fix” the camera is a redesign and retrofit for every M8 out there. It also seems pretty clear that Leica doesn’t know how to fix the camera. They still seem mystified by the lockup problem and it seems to be the kind of intermittent thing that can drive you nuts if you’re trying to debug software or fix a car. In any case, they don’t seem any closer to a solution than they were a year ago. I suspect the answer is that it’s a combination of things, and when the “things” come into alignment the problem happens. Even if Leica figures out what the problem is, I doubt they can afford to retrofit every M8 they’ve built.

 

So I’ve hoped, and continue to hope, there’ll be an M9, but I suspect there won’t be one. The question Leica now has to face is how big a market there is for a rangefinder? I suspect you can at least get a clue on the Leica discussion threads. I know; everyone says you can’t learn anything by reading camera fora, but, in the case of the M8, I think you can. If you’ve never done it, check out Nikonians. Unless you drink two cups of strong black coffee before you start reading, it’s hard to read five or six threads on that forum without falling asleep. Nikonians are boring. There’s nothing controversial about Nikons. The cameras just make pictures. People don’t love their Nikons, except for their reliability, flexibility and exceptionally fine photographs. Leicaphiles love their cameras because of the way the camera feels in their hands, because you still have to take the stupid base plate off to change flash cards, because you have to set aperture and focus manually, and because there’s a tradition that goes way, way back. If you grew up with film Leicas in the days before digital, you’d really like that feeling in your hands again. At least I do. That attitude is what lets Leicaphiles go on excusing the shortcomings of the M8.

 

Leicaphiles get together on fora like this to exchange subjective thoughts rather than strictly objective explorations of information on subjects like how to clean a sensor. I’m sure the people on the M8 fora are only a subset of people owning M8s, but probably not an awfully small subset of those who actually use the camera on a daily basis – as opposed to those who bought the camera to shoot pictures of their cat, or because they thought they’d become Cartier-Bresson with a Leica in hand but then discovered they had to learn new things to use the camera. If I’m right, the market for rangefinders is limited, and, since we’re all getting older, the limited market’s probably becoming even more limited.

 

There’s another problem on the horizon: Remember how expensive lcd computer screens were in the beginning. It was difficult and expensive to make a 15 inch lcd screen for a laptop – even a monochrome one. But now you can buy a color lcd TV screen that practically covers a wall for about the same price you’d have paid for, say, a 21 inch computer monitor when color lcd screens were just getting started. I suspect the same thing’s going to happen with digital sensors. They may not get huge but they’re going to get cheaper. At some point not too far off we’re going to see point-and-shoot cameras with sensors that rival the current D3 sensor. That doesn’t mean you’re going to see a full-frame sensor for an M. That’s a different problem. But it does mean that some of the advantages of a rangefinder – size and weight – are going to be available on a very capable point-and-shoot. It’s already starting to happen.

 

So, when a good point-and-shoot becomes a reasonable camera to use on the street, what’s left for the rangefinder? Oh yes, you can focus a rangefinder more accurately than a point-and-shoot. But whether or not that continues to be true depends on what goes into a really good point-and-shoot. I’m pretty sure rangefinders will rule the roost in some specialized kinds of photography, but beyond that, what? I read posts on these threads about landscape photography, but if you’re serious about landscape you don’t try to do it with an M8 or a D3 or an EOS1ds Mk???. You do it with at least a 4 x 5 or, if you’re really serious, an 8 x 10. And before long you’ll be able to go out with your 8 x 10 view and its $3,000 digital back and get real landscape stuff. I’m not suggesting true Leicaphiles will give up their Ms for point-and-shoots, but I am suggesting that point-and-shoot development is going to shrink the rangefinder market even further.

 

So if you’re Leica, looking ahead at what’s coming – after failing to do that for eight years while others were plunging into digital – what do you see? I think you see a shrinking market that forces you to do some serious green eyeshade work to figure out whether or not you can afford to invest in an M9.

 

And it seems to me the answer’s not encouraging. I’m sure Epson’s experience is on the minds of the leadership at Leica. Epson found they couldn’t make money on the R-D1, even when they started selling brand new R-D1s as “refurbished” at half their original price, so they dropped the camera. The initial rush to buy the M8 is over, and a lot of those M8s were bought by people who’d bought the R-D1 but wanted a rangefinder with a red badge. Then, there’s the problem caused by the M8s faults. Leica lost a lot of prestige because of those faults.

 

If the “M”s were being produced by a US company I’d know the answer immediately. Most of our companies have been taken over by MBAs. To them the bottom line is everything. They’d drop the M9 in a heartbeat. I don’t know what Herr Kaufmann will do, but I’m not encouraged by the “perpetual care” program for the M8, which looks like a punt.

 

I keep thinking about a story that’s told about “Old Man Coleman,” the guy who started and owned the company that makes camp stoves, etc. A problem turned up in one of the stove models. The company’s second-tier executives were in a conference room, getting ready to brief Coleman on the problem, and discussing ways to “spin” the problem for the press. Coleman walked in and sat down. Someone started the briefing but Coleman stopped him and said, “You mean there’s something wrong with that stove?” The briefer said, “Yes, sir.” Coleman said, “Get ‘em all back and fix ‘em,” stood up and walked out.

 

If Herr Kaufmann were Old Man Coleman all the M8s would have gone back for retrofit by now. On the other hand, Coleman owned the company. He didn’t have stockholders to whom he had a fiduciary duty to keep profits as high as possible. That’s a problem Herr Kaufmann has to face, and I’m glad I’m not in his shoes.

 

So what’s the bottom line for the M9? Who knows. We’ll just have to wait and see. I keep hoping, but I’m too old to sit here and hold my breath.

[jaapv]

I keep thinking about a story that’s told about “Old Man Coleman,” the guy who started and owned the company that makes camp stoves, etc. A problem turned up in one of the stove models. The company’s second-tier executives were in a conference room, getting ready to brief Coleman on the problem, and discussing ways to “spin” the problem for the press. Coleman walked in and sat down. Someone started the briefing but Coleman stopped him and said, “You mean there’s something wrong with that stove?” The briefer said, “Yes, sir.” Coleman said, “Get ‘em all back and fix ‘em,” stood up and walked out.

 

If Herr Kaufmann were Old Man Coleman all the M8s would have gone back for retrofit by now. On the other hand, Coleman owned the company. He didn’t have stockholders to whom he had a fiduciary duty to keep profits as high as possible. That’s a problem Herr Kaufmann has to face, and I’m glad I’m not in his shoes.

 

One thing you are wrong about, Russel: Dr. Kaufmann owns 95,1 % of the stock and is pushing to buy up the last 4.9%. If that is not owning the company, I dont know what is...

 

The problem with this kind of discussions: Dozens of M8's that perform without hitch cannot alleviate the frustration of one owner whose camera locks up.

 

As for the projected use for various camera types in the future, well your guess is as good as mine. Nobody knows. Anyway the needed concentration of producers that always comes with shifting technology cannot apply here. Basically Leica is the only one left. We can practically discount Zeiss and CV as competition, as digital seems to have slipped from their grasp.

[stunsworth]

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So, when a good point-and-shoot becomes a reasonable camera to use on the street, what’s left for the rangefinder?

 

Quite a lot I'd guess. For the exact same reason that when there were film p&s cameras many of us preferred to use the Leica M system. When was the first electronic p&s? From memory is was the Yashica Electro in the early 70s. So for 35 years or so there was a system available that used the same film as Leica Ms, yet now the Yashica is history and Leicas are still available.

 

Yes, rangefinder users are in a minority - that's been the case for almsot 50 years.

 

I hadn't reasised that you assesment of the relative merit of the M8 and D3 came without any experience of the Leica. Yes the M8 and D3 are different, and some prefer one to the other. Has this thread anything to say other than that?

[delander †]

Russell, what a post and an analysis.

 

However I am reading between your lines (wrongly or rightly) that you really would like an M8. For all its niggles it is simply like no other camera.

 

I don't know what the future holds for Leica but I hope they are able continue in their niche, offering a liberating alternative to the big black electronic machines.

 

It is like film, which I see as always being there as a niche in the market for those who want to stand out from the increasingly crowded crowd.

 

My advice which you probably dont want, hot foot down to your local dealer, get an M8, have fun and bring some more soul to your photography. You can still take your D3 up the mountain (that little extra M8 weighs nothing) but I suspect that you might soon opt for the M8 alone.

 

Jeff

[gwelland]

<snip>

 

Yes the M8 and D3 are different, and some prefer one to the other. Has this thread anything to say other than that?

 

Recently I've been shooting with both the M8 and D3 together (well obviously not at exactly the same time!). I carry them both. What kind of nut case does that make me?

[fotografr]

They still seem mystified by the lockup problem and it seems to be the kind of intermittent thing that can drive you nuts if you’re trying to debug software or fix a car. In any case, they don’t seem any closer to a solution than they were a year ago.

 

 

I disagree. I've had some very detailed exchanges with people in Solms and my understanding is that the problem was identified as faulty transistor. The reason we continue to see the problem is that the there are still some cameras out there with the bad part.

 

 

 

The question Leica now has to face is how big a market there is for a rangefinder?

 

 

There has been a limited market for rangefinders since the first SLR hit the market. This is why Leica has never become a company the size of Canon. It's no different with the M8. Some people love using rangefinders, some don't.

 

 

So, when a good point-and-shoot becomes a reasonable camera to use on the street, what’s left for the rangefinder?

 

 

You've missed the whole point of the M8, which is to be able to use the Leica M glass on a digital camera. The sensor is only part of the equation. I don't care how good the sensor is, if the lens has barreling, flare and chromatic aberration problems the camera it is attached to will still just be a glorified P&S.

[fotografr]

Recently I've been shooting with both the M8 and D3 together (well obviously not at exactly the same time!). I carry them both. What kind of nut case does that make me?

 

Add an M7 to the mix and you'll be lucky someone doesn't grab you off the street and have you committed.

[pgk]

I'm not going to get involved in second guessing the future, but will comment as follows:

 

How many cameras can you actually preset to a hyperfocal distance so that they are ready to shoot instantly without having to consider focus issues?

 

Given the apparent enormity of the M8's failings (mine's fine that said) why are there so few lenses available for them on the secondhand market - given the internet's ability to showcase products on a worldwide basis. I'm amazed at how few (relatively recent) lenses are readily available to buy used.

 

Its easy to convince yourself that something has no future, but in reality nobody really knows what will happen in the disconcerting world of electronics. Its possible that reality will kick in and people will realise that specification is not the be all and end all of cameras - My M8 produces print quality just as I hoped it would and the prints are absolutely adequate for purpose!

[jaapv]

Recently I've been shooting with both the M8 and D3 together (well obviously not at exactly the same time!). I carry them both. What kind of nut case does that make me?

 

Don't worry, Graham, I'm worse. Recently I am using a DMR with two zooms, the 28-70 and 105-280 and they just fit into my camera bag. Guess what lives in the front pocket? M8 with a couple of extra lenses.....

[Vieri]

Recently I've been shooting with both the M8 and D3 together (well obviously not at exactly the same time!). I carry them both. What kind of nut case does that make me?

 

The same nut case as doing the same thing makes me, I guess there are many out there for which shooting two system is normal, and for many professionals this is definitely the norm - I don't see all the fuss here... Nikon D & Leica M(8) are two different systems made for different purposes and different styles of shooting: something almost as old as photography itself, let alone digital vs film...

[RSL]

One thing you are wrong about, Russel: Dr. Kaufmann owns 95,1 % of the stock and is pushing to buy up the last 4.9%....

The problem with this kind of discussions: Dozens of M8's that perform without hitch cannot alleviate the frustration of one owner whose camera locks up. As for the projected use for various camera types in the future, well your guess is as good as mine. Nobody knows. Anyway the needed concentration of producers that always comes with shifting technology cannot apply here. Basically Leica is the only one left. We can practically discount Zeiss and CV as competition, as digital seems to have slipped from their grasp.

 

Jaap, I hope Dr. Kaufmann is able to buy the rest of the company. It would put him in Coleman's position. But even then, the problem of what to do next still exists. I'm not making pronouncements on the M8 in that post. I'm speculating about an M9. I know, a lot of M8 owners have been lucky and haven't had a problem. What percentage that is we'll probably never know. But the old story in retail is that a satisfied customer might tell one other person. A dissatisfied customer will tell a hundred other people. That's the hit the M8 took. Yes, Leica's the only one left, and, as I said, I'm glad I'm not in Herr Kaufmann's shoes at this point. If Leica's going to survive there has to be a follow-on to the M8. But if the follow-on causes another blow to Leica's reputation, it's the end for Leica. Let's keep our fingers and toes crossed.

[delander †]

Rusell, I am sorry I couldn't resist this.

 

Do you have a spreadsheet to keep track of your D3 settings? You wont need that for an M8 so no need to take that laptop with you.

 

Jeff

[gwelland]

Add an M7 to the mix and you'll be luck someone doesn't grab you off the street and have you committed.

 

As it happens ... M7 & D3 & Ricoh GR1v when I'm feeling retro

 

Like others, I don't see what all the fuss is about either.

[lxlim]

Recently I've been shooting with both the M8 and D3 together (well obviously not at exactly the same time!). I carry them both. What kind of nut case does that make me?

 

A nikon-leica nut-case quite similar to a canon-leica nutcase. I've been shooting with a 1DmkIII and M8 alternating.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mooky]

See what I miss when one takes a break for a while??? Not much it appears.....Nothing personal really - just that cameras are for taking pictures. Rangefinders and SLR's are here for us to enjoy and use as the style, job, intellect, artistry,,,etc....allow.

 

That should be good enough. Economically speaking, digital is not a good investment - obsolescence happens way to fast, and will continue until the technology stabilizes - I don't have the money to spend on a $5,000.00 camera body that has too many fragile bits and chips to last 10 years or more. If Leica (or anyone else) wants to guarantee and design a body that can be updated and upgraded,,,,,,great - but until then.....

 

What to do in the meantime? Actually, I recently bought an old F2A, I'll pick up a couple of old lenses for it. Will they be as sharp as the latest and greatest from Nikon or Leica? No....but they will have a 'look' all their own just like the older Leica lenses do. I still have my Leica's and Pentax 6x7,,,,,,shoot film, and scan images in big files and have the best of both worlds. Keep shooting pictures more and speculate less....try it, you'll like it!!!!!!

[RSL]

Rusell, I am sorry I couldn't resist this.

 

Do you have a spreadsheet to keep track of your D3 settings? You wont need that for an M8 so no need to take that laptop with you.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, Sorry, don't have a spreadsheet to keep track of D3 settings and I couldn't believe it when I saw someone doing that. There's actually one on Nikonians for the D2X right now, and it's sticky! As far as not needing that with the M8, remember, I spent a couple decades shooting with an M2, M4, and IIIf. I loved the M4 best of all and wish I'd never sold it. Some days I work the street with an R-D1. It's a pretty good little camera and I appreciate the thumb wind for the shutter. Doesn't quite feel like my M4, but it's not all that far off either.