How about a line of M Autofocus Lenses for the EV line of M cameras?

[JNK100]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

13 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

I see now it has been discontinued. But it is still on the Fujifilm website...

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Strange!

I had an X pro-1 and liked it.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[JNK100]

2 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

A simple answer from Leica could be rebadged Lumx S9. A slightly more could be CL2 with FF sensor. Use L mount lens, of course. call it M!

The S9 is essentially a video-camera without a viewfinder and this "CL2" is currently available as the SL3.

[pgk]

8 hours ago, zlatkob said:

My point is that full frame autofocus lenses can be reasonably compact. They don't have to as small as M lenses in order to qualify as small or compact.

Well, whilst not as compact as M lenses I don't see a vast amount of weight difference. But that is not, like it or not, the point for many M system users. They like M lenses for all their attributes. And there is no question about the optical excellence of many of the M lenses. My Sony FE lenses are actually very good indeed, but the entire ethos behind their design is completely different from M lenses and trying to build any sort of automation into M lenses will create a furore way beyond anything you might read hear about the M-EV1!

[luigi bertolotti]

9 hours ago, zlatkob said:

I agree that autofocus is out of the M concept. But that doesn't mean Leica can't make an M-styled autofocus camera. They already do: the Q series. It would simply be a logical evolution of the Q series to make a line of interchangeable autofocus lenses for a future Q. It would not have to be backwards compatible with the M. While backward compatibility is the spirit of the M, not everything Leica makes is backward compatible with the M. 

The practical interest for customers is obvious: many customers appreciate autofocus (making the Q so popular), but don't want a big SL body with big SL lenses.

Quite logical... but the conclusion is, as you say , a future Q... not an M: Q has a style of its own (nice and rather succesful, I think), no need to complicate their product line styling it as a M. But if and when they will do this future Q is highly questionable imho... they are anyway a "low volume" manufacturer, and another line of AF lenses would mean a costly investment: Q till now has been a distinguishing "one focal" camera, a concept that many appreciate.. maybe better and safer to stand on this way (a "UWA Q", a "portrait Q"...)

[jankap]

2 hours ago, JNK100 said:

The S9 is essentially a video-camera without a viewfinder and this "CL2" is currently available as the SL3.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

With a rebranding of the S9 to Leica the Visoflex connection could be added.

Edited Thursday at 10:28 AM by jankap

[willeica]

10 hours ago, zlatkob said:

@adan I mention those products (SL, S, Q, TL) because they show that Leica can and does make new systems, contrary to the view that Leica is too small and doesn't have the resources to develop a new lens or camera line. Moreover, the Q is Leica's biggest seller, according to a recent Leica press release, so sometimes building something new can be a good business move.

At the Leica Society International Conference (LSI) in Montreal last week we did a tour of the room in which everyone introduced themselves and said what their favourite Leica was. The winner was the Q3 43 followed by the M11. I said mine was the I Model A 😇. I had a Q3 43 with me, along with a Canadian made M4-P. We also got to test the M EV1 and I tried that camera again in my dealer in Dublin yesterday. It is set up for using M lenses with a similar system to the manual focus on a Q, so there are no autofocus possibilities there. We were told that the M EV1 is packed inside with no even a mm of spare space. The lenses on the Q series are massive compared to M lenses e.g. compared to 35mm or 50mm M lenses and I believe that one of the reasons why Leica went to 43mm is that the body would not take a 50mm lens. Telephotos would be impossible at that size of body and the nature of the design.

With the Leica bodies there is a trade off between size and quality and Leica is unstinting in its pursuit of quality and, of course, profitability. Sony and Fuji have produced some nice cameras with smaller lenses, but the image sizes and design principles are quite different. As for an 'autofocus M', if such a model ever appears, the bodies and lenses would be quite a bit larger than the traditional M products and they would almost certainly not have an M lens mount or a traditional rangefinder, which would mean it would not be an M=Messsucher, as Stefan Daniel said at our LSI meeting in Dublin in 2022. He has acknowledged that was the day that the concept of the M EV 1 was born.

William 

[beewee]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Part of the appeal of the M-mount is that the lenses, with few exceptions, are all backwards compatible with all M-mount cameras over the last 70 years.

A hypothetical auto-focusing M-lens would very likely break that backwards compatibility. Most AF lenses today use focus-by-wire when the MF ring is turned and this is partly because of cost, size, weight constraints where if mechanical focusing was needed, the lenses would need to be bigger to add components like clutches that can mechanically couple the focusing ring with the optics for manual focusing and then disengage when in AF mode. This then either make the lens diameter bigger, or impose size constraints to internal lens elements, or more likely - both.

Moreover, rangefinder coupled M-lenses have a size constraints from an ergonomics usability perspective where the lens cannot block the view of the viewfinder patch, otherwise the rangefinder functionality will be lost. Also, as the lens diameter grows, the viewable area within the optical viewfinder also diminishes as the lens barrel intrudes into the frame lines. This constraint has been both a blessing and a curse. It makes the lens design more challenging and thereby increasing the cost but it also enforces an upper bound on the size of an M-lens, and indirectly, weight.

The compact nature of the M-system, and more specifically M-mount lenses, is very much physically driven by the physical limitations imposed by the rangefinder optics themselves. So if the complexity of the lens must grow, the optical designers must make additional compromises either in the lens optical quality or the physical size of the lens must grow. Although a larger lens barrel is not as consequential for an EVF only camera, it is very consequential for backwards compatibility on rangefinder cameras. If one were to break backwards compatibility with the rangefinder itself, then the lens in many ways may have an M-mount but will have lost a core attribute of an M-system lens, both in rangefinder coupling and form-factor.

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, jankap said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

With a rebranding of the S9 to Leica the Visoflex connection could be added.

Have you used the S9? I have one that I use for it's excellent video, and as a walkaround "tourist" camera with a kit zoom. It's very different from any digital Leica. You couldn't simply "rebadge" an S9, you'd have to give it a better body (you need tiny fingers to use it), give it a much better LCD, and fix a number of small design issues that people accept on an entry-level camera, but not on a Leica. The Lumix S5ii is a lot closer to what you'd want, but it still feels like a cheap camera (which it is), and it's not that much smaller than an SL3-S.

I agree that Leica should make a smaller SL variant, but putting a Leica badge on an S9 isn't the answer.

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Have you used the S9? I have one that I use for it's excellent video, and as a walkaround "tourist" camera with a kit zoom. It's very different from any digital Leica. You couldn't simply "rebadge" an S9, you'd have to give it a better body (you need tiny fingers to use it), give it a much better LCD, and fix a number of small design issues that people accept on an entry-level camera, but not on a Leica. The Lumix S5ii is a lot closer to what you'd want, but it still feels like a cheap camera (which it is), and it's not that much smaller than an SL3-S.

I agree that Leica should make a smaller SL variant, but putting a Leica badge on an S9 isn't the answer.

Don’t worry. Once S9 has the Leica logo, the whole world will praise it. the back order list will take decades to ship! Who said it must have a view finder? An M can have an EVF, certainly an AF M can have no VF.

Serious, replacing CL with FF sensor now is technical possible, or a Q with zoom, or a Q with interchangeable lens.

 

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Have you used the S9? I have one that I use for it's excellent video, and as a walkaround "tourist" camera with a kit zoom. It's very different from any digital Leica. You couldn't simply "rebadge" an S9, you'd have to give it a better body (you need tiny fingers to use it), give it a much better LCD, and fix a number of small design issues that people accept on an entry-level camera, but not on a Leica. The Lumix S5ii is a lot closer to what you'd want, but it still feels like a cheap camera (which it is), and it's not that much smaller than an SL3-S.

I agree that Leica should make a smaller SL variant, but putting a Leica badge on an S9 isn't the answer.

You do realize that the whole D-Lux line is just rebadged Panasonics with exactly the improvements you said Leica would need to make to an S9? 

I can definitely see how a Leica S9 would/could have been a better bet than the EV1, or at least stand beside it, especially with a next gen Visoflex. Unfortunately the M11 may not have enough oomph to power an updated Visoflex - once again Leica backing themselves into an under-specced corner. 

[lct]

Sigma did it with the FPL but the accessory EVF, albeit handy, is bulky:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[zlatkob]

1 hour ago, Einst_Stein said:

Don’t worry. Once S9 has the Leica logo, the whole world will praise it. the back order list will take decades to ship! Who said it must have a view finder? An M can have an EVF, certainly an AF M can have no VF.

Serious, replacing CL with FF sensor now is technical possible, or a Q with zoom, or a Q with interchangeable lens.

 

Yes, it seems so obvious, right? The S9 already has the L mount. It just needs restyling with a Q shape, a Q interface, a Leica logo, and introduction as the "interchangeable lens Q" or "small, nicely-shaped SL". 😀 It would not be complete without an EVF, however, but that EVF already exists on the Q series and now the M EV1. The Q3 has an EVF and it is just 5 or 6mm taller than the S9.

Some make it sound as such a camera is beyond Leica's small company resources ... a monumental task ... too hard because it would require a whole new system, etc. And yet it is clearly within Leica's reach and even a logical evolution. It could have the L mount for a wide range of lenses. Or it could have a new Q mount for more exclusivity and just a few new lenses. Either way, it brings autofocus lenses to an M-styled (ok, ok ... Q-styled) camera. By having the ability to change lenses, it would make Leica's current best seller (the Q series) even more appealing to those who rely on autofocus.

[BernardC]

29 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

You do realize that the whole D-Lux line is just rebadged Panasonics with exactly the improvements you said Leica would need to make to an S9? 

I don't agree that the D-Lux line is all that modified from the Lumix originals, but we all see different things. Besides, here in Canada the D-Lux was priced competitively with a Lumix, if you take into account the longer warranty that Leica provided. 

 

I provided my opinion as someone who owns and uses an S9 and several Leicas. The S9 is good for what it is, but it isn't a Leica M. Besides, the design brief for the EV1 wasn't "make as cheap an M as possible", it was "make an M with an EVF for a few thousand M customers who have stated that they want/need such a thing." If that doesn't describe you, that's OK. Other options are available. 

[BernardC]

9 minutes ago, zlatkob said:

Some make it sound as such a camera is beyond Leica's small company resources ... a monumental task ... too hard because it would require a whole new system, etc. And yet it is clearly within Leica's reach and even a logical evolution. It could have the L mount for a wide range of lenses. Or it could have a new Q mount for more exclusivity and just a few new lenses. Either way, it brings autofocus lenses to an M-styled (ok, ok ... Q-styled) camera. By having the ability to change lenses, it would make Leica's current best seller (the Q series) even more appealing to those who rely on autofocus.

I would love to see the TL come back with a 24x36 sensor. That camera was ahead of its time , which dampened sales, but it might be less shocking a decade later.

Either way (new TL or Q with interchangeable lenses), these would be L-mount cameras, not part of the M line.

[charlesphoto99]

7 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The S9 is good for what it is, but it isn't a Leica M. 

I think many could argue the EV1 isn't a Leica M either....

[rxj]

Better off buying the SL if you want autofocus. They have excellent APO L mount lenses.

The M lenses are that size for a reason, you add autofocus motors and you'll get huge lenses ultimately nullifying any argument for compact M and M lenses in the first place.

These subjects are just becoming silly now.

The M EV1 was released for a reason and it's a new family and it's a gap in Leica's market and people will buy it.

M Autofocus. Either go SL or switch brands.

[zlatkob]

32 minutes ago, rxj said:

Better off buying the SL if you want autofocus. They have excellent APO L mount lenses.

The M lenses are that size for a reason, you add autofocus motors and you'll get huge lenses ultimately nullifying any argument for compact M and M lenses in the first place.

These subjects are just becoming silly now.

The M EV1 was released for a reason and it's a new family and it's a gap in Leica's market and people will buy it.

M Autofocus. Either go SL or switch brands.

Yes of course, a photographer is "better off" buying what exists rather than what doesn't exist. But we are here discussing something that doesn't exist. That may be silly, but it's fun.

And here we go again: that argument that autofocus lenses must be "huge lenses" because ... big AF motors. This point is often made, but it is false. See my comment above, listing more than 20 current compact autofocus lenses. Agreed they are not as small as M lenses, but they are not at all huge or heavy. Some are even lighter than M lenses (see my comment above about the autofocus Sigma 90/2.8 ... just one example). There are now many real lenses that disprove the "AF lenses must be huge" argument.

Edited Thursday at 06:02 PM by zlatkob

[pgk]

7 minutes ago, zlatkob said:

There are now many real lenses that disprove the "AF lenses must be huge" argument.

Made of plastic. What do you reckon sales of a plastic M lens would be like?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[zlatkob]

33 minutes ago, pgk said:

Made of plastic. What do you reckon sales of a plastic M lens would be like?

The Sigma "i Series" lenses have an all metal construction. And they are compact. And there are nine of them. And they are available in L mount. So plastic isn't needed to make them small. And autofocus motors don't make them huge. There are metal examples from other manufacturers too (e.g. metal Sony 40/2.5, 173 grams).

The Contax G1 and G2 showed that AF lenses could be small way back in the 1990s, albeit with the AF motor inside the camera. But they were AF lenses and they were compact. With today's technology, there are many compact AF lenses with AF motors in them.

So really, that "AF lenses must be huge" argument should be retired.

Obviously interchangeable autofocus lenses would not be for the M. I agree that's a no go. Rather they would be for some future version of the SL or Q, or a camera with some other name, but possibly with an M-style or Q-style shape.

Edited Thursday at 06:44 PM by zlatkob

[Pieter12]

Hate to harp on this one, but there are adapters to use M lenses on the Fuji Pro. I think there were issues with the XPro 3, but the XPro2 is an excellent camera with the feel of a Leica M rangefinder. Optical hybrid viewfinder that switches to an EVF for manual focus when using M lenses and the Fuji X AF lenses are much less expensive and of high quality. It is my go-to camera for travel.