Leica M EV2 -- your next camera?

[setuporg]

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Given that M EV1 lacks everything we imagined, might as well start the list of what actually should be in one to make it useful.

Fuji X100 started a really promising line, and Leica should bring it home.  Make an OVF with EVF hybrid viable and useful.

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[maxpower]

16 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Fuji X100 started a really promising line, and Leica should bring it home.  Make an OVF with EVF hybrid viable and useful.

I don't think we can expect that. From the Stefan Daniel interview: 

Quote

 

Question 2: Did you think about a hybrid viewfinder as an option?

Answer: We certainly did. A hybrid viewfinder was a pre-development concept, but it very quickly became clear that it would not be a good user experience owing to the low magnification and low field of view. It was a solution based on compromise. Remember, in addition to the optical and electronic view there is the third light pathway for rangefinding – we just could not make it work effectively so we gave it up. People often tend to think of another company that offers hybrid viewfinders, but it is important to bear in mind that their cameras possess optical viewfinders and NOT rangefinders with their opto-mechanical complexity. It just did not make sense, and we will not touch that again. 

 

 

 

[lct]

My next camera? Good question. Owning both M11 and MEV1, unsure if i need anything else. An M13 with global shutter and Visoflex 3 perhaps?

[SrMi]

42 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Given that M EV1 lacks everything we imagined, might as well start the list of what actually should be in one to make it useful.

I doubt that you speak for everybody.

Edited 5 hours ago by SrMi

[LocalHero1953]

37 minutes ago, setuporg said:

everything we imagined

Who are 'we'? The M EV1 is exactly what I imagined and what most of the rumours suggested.

[otto.f]

20 minutes ago, maxpower said:

I don't think we can expect that. From the Stefan Daniel interview: 

 

 

 

Having read this interview I now understand better that the EV1 isn’t actually meant for experienced rangefinder users. It would be logical then that the EV1 gets a chapter on its own, like the Q and the SL and not under M. That would also underline the real intentions of Leica to produce this camera, as pointed out in the review. 

[vkdev]

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I will trade my SL for M EV because I don't use SL.

[padam]

Only two things are likely for the next model: it will be like the M12, it's going to have less buttons in favour of a huge LCD, and it's likely to be smaller.
While there is a rumour saying they've tested IBIS for the next generation, how they can implement it without making it thicker is still in question.
Can they improve the EVF? Again, size is a factor.
Can they improve the shutter to add EFCS? Same.
Can they improve readout? Potentially yes, but it will remain a high-megapixel camera, so it will most likely remain slow.

So apart from - maybe - IBIS, I wouldn't expect big changes and it may not come until the M-12P.

Maybe some day, mechanical shutter won't be needed anymore, but we are a long way away from that.

[Edax]

3 minutes ago, padam said:

Maybe some day, mechanical shutter won't be needed anymore, but we are a long way away from that.

You may want to try to explain this to Nikon Z9 users... 😅

[SrMi]

Unless the sales are good, there will be no M-EV2. If you want an M-EV2 to happen, buy the M-EV1 🤣.

[FrozenInTime]

I think a -S  variant of the M-EV1 would solve a lot of issues:

A lot less data to crunch with a 24 Mpixel sensor. Semi-stacked read out ~10ms rather than 66ms of the 60 Mpixel sensor, so refresh a lot snappier.

The cost would be lower, so more amenable to take a risk and give it a try. Also get rid of that obnoxious red dot !

Hugh Brownstone hit on one great ideal focus aid solution, like Nikon Zf, eye detection so that punch in magnification is on the spot you want it to be.

 

[padam]

1 minute ago, Edax said:

You may want to try to explain this to Nikon Z9 users... 😅

Different size and weight. While they do have a Z8, they can't even design their Z6-sized line like that, which is still bigger than Leica.
A Sony A9III is closer, but again, not without limitations.

In theory, the Pixii already looks at the future, since it already has no mechanical shutter - but it doesn't use a sensor that reads out fast enough not to be limiting.
Once they add that, overheating and power draw becomes an even bigger problem.
Leica is committed to high-end optics, high megapixels, and they are known not to implement the latest tech.

[M8X2]

I'll wait for the M EV1-D.

[padam]

6 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

I think a -S  variant of the M-EV1 would solve a lot of issues:

A lot less data to crunch with a 24 Mpixel sensor. Semi-stacked read out ~10ms rather than 66ms of the 60 Mpixel sensor, so refresh a lot snappier.

The cost would be lower, so more amenable to take a risk and give it a try. Also get rid of that obnoxious red dot !

Hugh Brownstone hit on one great ideal focus aid solution, like Nikon Zf, eye detection so that punch in magnification is on the spot you want it to be.

 

We can see from an S1R II vs S1 II that cost wouldn't be that much lower, if any. They use cooling fans in bigger bodies, yet still suffer from overheating.
So yes, maybe in an SL4-S (and it's still going to be an issue without active cooling), but not in an M.
Maybe if they do an S9 II with that sensor, then I may start to believe it (but even then, Leica may not want to make such a model)

The Nikon solution uses phase-detect pixels, which won't be implemented in a manual-focus only camera. That's how they achieve native ISO 64 and the best dynamic range.

[Chris W]

Fuji cameras always seem to pollute any discussion about Leica.

I had an X100 series for a couple of years. I never once used the hybrid viewfinder. That's not even the biggest deal about M rangefinders either. You can either see the rangefinder patch well enough to focus accurately or you can't.

One reviewer correctly highlighted the poor implementation of focus peaking on Leica products. I've stopped using it on my SL2-S because too many shots were soft focus. I very rarely use the screen on my M11.

[Chris W]

13 minutes ago, padam said:

In theory, the Pixii already looks at the future, since it already has no mechanical shutter 

The future STILL needs mechanical shutters.

[FrozenInTime]

10 minutes ago, padam said:

We can see from an S1R II vs S1 II that cost wouldn't be that much lower, if any. They use cooling fans in bigger bodies, yet still suffer from overheating.
So yes, maybe in an SL4-S (and it's still going to be an issue without active cooling), but not in an M.
Maybe if they do an S9 II with that sensor, then I may start to believe it (but even then, Leica may not want to make such a model)

The Nikon solution uses phase-detect pixels, which won't be implemented in a manual-focus only camera. That's how they achieve native ISO 64 and the best dynamic range.

Heat is more of a video issue ? I was thinking more of the Nikon ZR or Z6III as a hardware reference point - passive cooling engineered to work !

[padam]

15 minutes ago, Chris W said:

The future STILL needs mechanical shutters.

It's not going to vanish, most lower-end models will likely have it, as it's still more costly to have more advanced sensors.
But removing it seems like one way to make an M even simpler and more compact, so in that regard, it fits the philosophy of the system.
(Also has the side benefit of having fast readout in the first place, makes the EVF image better, the M EV1 would become easier to use just by that change - but of course it increases battery drain as well.)

Edited 4 hours ago by padam

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[padam]

1 minute ago, FrozenInTime said:

Heat is more of a video issue ? I was thinking more of the Nikon ZR or Z6III as a hardware reference point - passive cooling engineered to work !

It is of course possible. But Leica shares technology with Panasonic, which seems more prone to overheating, the cooling fan is still active during stills afaik.
And they are also committed to high-megapixel M cameras, they are not going to suddenly revert back to 24MP.
They already have a formula in the M EV1 and they are unlikely to deviate from that in any major way.

[Chris W]

24 minutes ago, padam said:

It's not going to vanish, most lower-end models will likely have it

Electronic shutters have more issues (artificial light flicker and rolling shutter) so most e-shutter only bodies are more at the affordable end of the market, where people accept the odd compromise. The number one thing that stopped buying Pixxi or Sigma was the lack of mechanical shutter.