There is NO "Digital Rangefinder Experience"

[pgh]

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17 hours ago, LUF Admin said:

Wrong baseline.

Do you want me to start a discussion with you by telling you my honest opinion about your social skills?

If you like a direct approach:

Do not start (or continue) a discussion in this forum by insulting other opinions.

Am I clear?

Are we protecting the feelings of a company now?

Tone policing a post that lays out an argument critiquing luxury marketing? I don’t think a critique of a marketing line is a personal attack on the opinions of people. The best photographers who have used Leicas were generally opinionated, subversive and critical individuals (indeed, it motivated their work). 

I am beginning to get a sense there is an agenda on this forum that goes beyond official policy. I hope I am wrong.

 

[pgh]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

And 28mm

Reading this thread, I’ve realized that many folks mistake the original post.  I dislike the yet imaginary idea of a simulated digital rangefinder.  This is not a criticism of the EV1 as it came now because that thing has barely any focus confirmation at all, unless you count focus peaking.  It’s like focusing a view camera.

As an imaginary exercise, it should not be insulting to anyone as it’s not anyone’s specific and dearly held concept yet.  (But if you were thinking of it warmly, then I’m sorry.:). It is a preemptive expression of artistic rage at a probable direction of where it is all going.  Thank me when the rangefinder is on the verge of being discontinued as someone who took a stand.  Cheers!

I think you inflate the significance of it a touch perhaps, however I think it is entirely valid as a forum post and the warning seems heavy handed.

I’m not the forum owner, but as a journalist I can’t help but think you’re entirely within your rights to speak against what you see as bullshit. I mean we are talking inanimate objects and a corporate entity here, if we can’t wax (slightly) explicitly about that the line seems…well, overly tightly hemmed in. Maybe that’s the American rabble rouser in me, but these are low stakes to sweat here. 

[LUF Admin]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb pgh:

I am beginning to get a sense there is an agenda on this forum that goes beyond official policy. I hope I am wrong.

You are wrong. Two indicators:

1 – Have you read my first reply? (And how many members welcomed it?)

vor 23 Stunden schrieb LUF Admin:

Interesting question, definitely worth a discussion.

But do you need to start it with such a barrage of invectiveness?

Yes, it's meant to be funny. But the tone is set, and not in a good way.

I welcomed the discussion. And I criticized the tone.

2 – There is no place on earth with more criticism of Leica and Leica products than the Leica Forum.

For 25 years now.

And you know what? Leica appreciates that.

There is an agenda in this forum. But not for influencing or manipulating members and customers but to learn from their experiences and opinions.

And this works only if we maintain a positive and respectful tone.

Andreas

[LUF Admin]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb pgh:

but these are low stakes to sweat here. 

You have never worked as a forum moderator. 

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way but I find that disrespectful.

You don’t have a clue how much work it takes to run and moderate such a big discussion board.

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, pgh said:

Are we protecting the feelings of a company now?

Tone policing a post that lays out an argument critiquing luxury marketing? I don’t think a critique of a marketing line is a personal attack on the opinions of people. The best photographers who have used Leicas were generally opinionated, subversive and critical individuals (indeed, it motivated their work). 

I am beginning to get a sense there is an agenda on this forum that goes beyond official policy. I hope I am wrong.

 

The problem with OP was not the topic or opinion, but the tone and style. If you do not moderate that, this forum will go down the toilet.

 

Edited Sunday at 06:37 AM by SrMi

[otto.f]

On 10/25/2025 at 8:06 AM, LUF Admin said:

But the tone is set, and not in a good way

Ladies and Gentlemen....  critique is Good!!

[SrMi]

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6 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Ladies and Gentlemen....  critique is Good!!

@LUF Admin is not objecting to the critique, but to the tone. A certain level of communication has to be mandated. 

[evikne]

8 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

My hope is that both the M12 and the EV2 will have vastly improved viewfinders, with accurate focusing across the range, with no pointless innovation - actually, I’d like a lot of the current feature bloat removed.  The M was apparently about what was needed for photography - accurate focusing would be central to that, in ways which the current M11 has features which aren’t.

I haven't even tried the M EV1 yet, but if it's possible to make the viewfinder image even bigger and clearer than it is today, like a huge panorama (or like using VR glasses), then other focusing aids wouldn't even be necessary, and it would be the fastest focusing method of all.

[otto.f]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

@LUF Admin is not objecting to the critique, but to the tone. A certain level of communication has to be mandated. 

I didn't hear a false tone at all. In my view it wasn't at all meant against Leica or LUF if that's the problem of @LUF Admin. I just appreciate any comment that tries to keep our concepts clean and clear.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, otto.f said:

I didn't hear a false tone at all. In my view it wasn't at all meant against Leica or LUF if that's the problem of @LUF Admin. I just appreciate any comment that tries to keep our concepts clean and clear.

I believe that terms like bullshit, stupid, and idiotic are not part of the right tone in this forum. Critiques of Leica are pretty common here and have not been censored, AFAIK. I agree that the intended topic would have been a good starting point for the discussion.

Edited Sunday at 07:16 AM by SrMi

[otto.f]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I believe that terms like bullshit, stupid, and idiotic are not part of the right tone in this forum. Critiques of Leica are pretty common here and have not been censored, AFAIK. I agree that the intended topic would have been a good starting point for the discussion.

fair enough, I didn't read all those words, sorry

[pgk]

9 hours ago, setuporg said:

[the M-EV1] It’s like focusing a view camera.

Exactly. But Leica M cameras aren't used like view cameras (or rarely I suspect from reading the forum).

The concept of a digital (co-incident) rangefinder is not one which really works for me. It would need a lot of caveats to work effectively and would not in itself change anything other than add in a layer of electronics rather than an optomechanical device. It might of course be cheaper to build but would also have an unknown lifespan and when spare electronic parts dried up would mean an unusable camera because it would be unrepairable.

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

I haven't even tried the M EV1 yet, but if it's possible to make the viewfinder image even bigger and clearer than it is today, like a huge panorama (or like using VR glasses), then other focusing aids wouldn't even be necessary, and it would be the fastest focusing method of all.

I laughed at your comment as I imaged an EV2 having no viewfinder, no LCD, just a Bluetooth connection to a phone and a VR headset, then I wondered about doing away with the camera altogether …

[evikne]

59 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I laughed at your comment as I imaged an EV2 having no viewfinder, no LCD, just a Bluetooth connection to a phone and a VR headset, then I wondered about doing away with the camera altogether …

I have also been thinking along those lines … 😄

(But in case anyone misunderstood my previous post, I of course only meant that the optimal experience in the viewfinder would be something comparable to wearing VR glasses.)

Edited Sunday at 09:43 AM by evikne

[adan]

15 hours ago, SrMi said:

You don't buy Leica for the versatility buy for the shooting experience and IQ.

I buy Leica Ms for their practical versatility. Wouldn't spend Leica money for a camera that was not versatile.

Every picture below (my own work) was made with a Leica M - film or digital (but, on topic, none with Liveview or EVF).

 

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[jaapv]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

I have also been thinking along those lines … 😄

(But in case anyone misunderstood my previous post, I of course only meant that the optimal experience in the viewfinder would be something similar to wearing VR glasses.)

Here

[evikne]

16 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Here

Looks cool, but as @IkarusJohn pointed out, you wouldn't even need a camera with something like this. And that's probably not exactly what Leica wants. 😄

[setuporg]

9 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I laughed at your comment as I imaged an EV2 having no viewfinder, no LCD, just a Bluetooth connection to a phone and a VR headset, then I wondered about doing away with the camera altogether …

This is why we need a sad emoji as a reaction.  Pixii already pioneered the instant Bluetooth push and M11 beta had it (does it have it now GA in FOTOS?).  The camera is just an electronic shutter with sensor and M lenses.  Fortunately no AI can replace the physics of gathering light.

[grif80128]

Vitriol aside. First, a definition of "rangefinder" is in order. From Improve Photography: "Rangefinder cameras are what essentially ushered in a new era of photography during the middle third of the last century. A rangefinder camera is made with a range-finding focusing mechanism that allows the photographer to measure the subject distance and take photographs that are in sharp focus. In short, the rangefinder camera allowed the photographer make quick exposures without sacrificing precision focusing." Key elements here IMO are "range-finding mechanism" and "sharp focus." If we can agree on that definition, then we have basis for discussion. Notice that the definition does NOT describe the technique or mechanism used. Traditionally or historically, an optical-mechanical mechanism has been used with different screens, i.e., split-screen/prism as a cost effective and simple means of arriving at the desired end result. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coincidence_rangefinder) This system depends on the ability of the photographer to distinguish the clarified image-introducing a risk of degraded product. Range finding in the past has been optical, electrical or sonic. Today we have access to higher accuracy tools (LIDAR-think iPhone/Laser-golf) in handheld/smaller packages. Regardless of the method used, if a camera determines "sharp focus" by optics, sonics, electronics it's a rangefinder. Leica is known for its precision optics-lenses. Why not allow Leica to enhance the ability of those optics by moving into the electronic finder and reducing the risk of user error? I'm 77 years old. My eyes aren't what they used to be. My hands don't give me the steady hold that they once did. Yes, I'll admit it-my brain is not as sharp as it once was. I enjoy the finder on my new Fujifilm X-E5. I can finally use my unaided eye to see what's in focus. I caution against "it's always been done that way" mind set.

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[BernardC]

On 10/26/2025 at 4:49 AM, evikne said:

(But in case anyone misunderstood my previous post, I of course only meant that the optimal experience in the viewfinder would be something comparable to wearing VR glasses.)

This reminds me of a Zeiss advert for their Cinemizer glasses. A friend forwarded it to me, he said it gave him nightmares:

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