Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder

[Markey]

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17 minutes ago, SrMi said:

M-EV1 was based on what customers said they needed. Leica, by itself, did not want to launch it but relented after pressure from customers.

With M-EV1, Leica is dipping their toes into a concept that they are unsure of. Before adding more development to the M-EV line, Leica needs to confirm that customers really want such a camera

Exactly I`m pleased that they listened but that`s not exactly chasing .

I`m not in the market for another M but if I were I would most likely go for the M EV both for the form factor and the fact that my 90`s would be easier to focus . 

 

 

[pgk]

13 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

If Leica can sell out $500 teddy bears, they can sell just about anything, no matter how compromised. They know their market. 

But who is it you are selling too? New customers? Sony, Canon, Nikon, other users? Because there are only a limited number of sales you can continue to make to existing users. Their marketing philosophy is very strange - selling an underspecified EVF camera and an overspecified RF camera .....

[charlesphoto99]

56 minutes ago, pgk said:

But who is it you are selling too? New customers? Sony, Canon, Nikon, other users? Because there are only a limited number of sales you can continue to make to existing users. Their marketing philosophy is very strange - selling an underspecified EVF camera and an overspecified RF camera .....

Customers who want the cachet of the Leica M, but then discover one has to actually work at it (though the learning curve with the instant feedback of digital is so much less than with film M's). Now half the work is taken care of, I guess (if only Leica would make an autofocus M will be the next cry). My dealer said their first batch sold out (no idea if that's 3 or 30). It's also now a luxury brand - nobody needs a better or different camera when one already has a half dozen or more, so it's filling the want that each new release brings. Red badged dopamine. Nothing wrong with that - I certainly have been guilty of that in the past, and not just with cameras.

The one thing that bugs me, starting with the M10 and getting progressively worse, is the startup and standby times. Personally, I think they should have dropped the M11 chassis and gone with magnesium/polycarbonate etc so they could put a Maestro IV or better in it and have the camera overall be more responsive with better heat management and much lighter which seems to be what a lot of folks want (old eyes and old shoulders). Or added a decent sized grip to it they could hide some electronics in. Maybe they'l think more outside the box for the next iteration, while leaving the M12 the traditional form. 

 

[bcaslis]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

If the M was so flawed due to its viewfinder, why did you buy an M body with rf to begin with? Or is this your first M, and therefore nothing but other EVF cameras to compare it with? Talking with my dealer about the EV1 (he's an MP shooter himself), he pointed at the case of Nikons and Sonys and said the EV1 will do well despite its flaws, because for a lot of people, EVFs are all they know. 

I never said the M was flawed, I said I like the changes on EV1 because I feel it adds things, unlike most of the responses in this thread which treat it as terrible because it removed the rangefinder. If someone wants the M11 or other M, great. I am responding to comments that EV1 doesn't add anything, I think it does. And if those changes don't matter to someone then fine, they don't need to buy one.

[bcaslis]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

But who is it you are selling too? New customers? Sony, Canon, Nikon, other users? Because there are only a limited number of sales you can continue to make to existing users. Their marketing philosophy is very strange - selling an underspecified EVF camera and an overspecified RF camera .....

According to Leica themselves this was driven by Leica users at a Leica meeting asking for this. I've asked myself in these forums. Apparently Leica is seeing enough demand to make this worthwhile. Many in this forum seem to think the M is rangefinder only and that is the reason people buy it. But that was never the overriding reason for me, I wanted a small, high build quality, high image quality camera for still photos. The rangefinder was a quirk that was willing to learn and use to get that. But it was not the end goal. I think that demographic is what will make or break the EV1. And while I have no idea if there is enough for Leica to view this as a success, I think there are lots more than this forum gives credit for.

[lct]

1 hour ago, bcaslis said:

[...] Many in this forum seem to think the M is rangefinder only and that is the reason people buy it [...]

If they really think so, they don't remember what has been repeated ad nauseam on this forum. All Leica M users are not interested in rangefinders. Even old M users like me may prefer using their M and LTM lenses on mirrorless cameras. The MEV1 is exactly what they (we) were expecting since the Leica meeting you're referring to. An EVF variant of the M11 that does not prevent anybody to prefer the latter if they see fit.

[Markey]

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8 hours ago, bcaslis said:

According to Leica themselves this was driven by Leica users at a Leica meeting asking for this. I've asked myself in these forums. Apparently Leica is seeing enough demand to make this worthwhile. Many in this forum seem to think the M is rangefinder only and that is the reason people buy it. But that was never the overriding reason for me, I wanted a small, high build quality, high image quality camera for still photos. The rangefinder was a quirk that was willing to learn and use to get that. But it was not the end goal. I think that demographic is what will make or break the EV1. And while I have no idea if there is enough for Leica to view this as a success, I think there are lots more than this forum gives credit for.

Exactly and how many M users do you see using them " incorrectly".

Leica have taken a cautious approach but must feel that there is sufficient need to make it worth their while .

I wish them well.

[Pelu2010]

Now you can use a 0,95 and a speedlight or strobe and you still can see the image and make decisions about where it should be sharp. I find this very helpful.  

[SrMi]

I think we can agree on advantages and disadvantages of RF vs EVF. Neither is perfect. 

I do not think we can and should agree on the importance of each advantage and disadvantage.

[charlesphoto99]

5 hours ago, Pelu2010 said:

Now you can use a 0,95 and a speedlight or strobe and you still can see the image and make decisions about where it should be sharp. I find this very helpful.  

Well, to shoot at .95 with a flash, you'd have to really dial down that flash and/or use ND filters. Talk about an edge case. Isn't the reason to spend $10k on a Noctilux so you don't have to use a strobe? 

Now, using an 18 or 21 with a strobe is the more likely scenario for an MEV1 and flash where one couldn't put an external finder on due to the hot shoe being used for the strobe connection. 

[lct]

45 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

[...] using an 18 or 21 with a strobe is the more likely scenario for an MEV1 and flash where one couldn't put an external finder on due to the hot shoe being used for the strobe connection [...]

Woud you mind to explain why? In my admittedly short experience, the MEV1 can be used with flash at any focal length with no accessory finder.

[Pixeleater]

The debate over M rangefinders versus M-EV1 seems to mirror what happened in the automotive world when manual transmissions first met automatic transmissions. Same themes like user engagement/experience vs convenience, purity vs progress, etc. I love my M10-R experience but also acknowledge that EV1 tech will probably become more precise than a mechanical rangefinder in future iterations (if Leica evolves this branch). 

Just like the transmission debates, this isn’t really about technology. It’s about feel and identity, and the meaning of the craft. Both systems can coexist—just like manuals and automatics did—each serving a different kind of joy.

[Pelu2010]

5 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Well, to shoot at .95 with a flash, you'd have to really dial down that flash and/or use ND filters. Talk about an edge case. Isn't the reason to spend $10k on a Noctilux so you don't have to use a strobe? 

Now, using an 18 or 21 with a strobe is the more likely scenario for an MEV1 and flash where one couldn't put an external finder on due to the hot shoe being used for the strobe connection. 

No, it’s the way the lens renders. And using a strobe does not mean that you should not use a strobe. I use it all the time and it’s quite difficult even with a diopter to get the shallow focus. But with the EV1 I can strobe and use the noctilux lenses. And you won’t belief it: the noctilux with flash look different than with ambient lights. The flash renders differently. 
And yes I use ND Filter often to get the look I am looking for. 

[jaapv]

19 hours ago, bcaslis said:

I never said the M was flawed, I said I like the changes on EV1 because I feel it adds things, unlike most of the responses in this thread which treat it as terrible because it removed the rangefinder. If someone wants the M11 or other M, great. I am responding to comments that EV1 doesn't add anything, I think it does. And if those changes don't matter to someone then fine, they don't need to buy one.

Given that the M has the option of an auxiliary EVF since 2013, it does not add much more than integration. At the expense of versatility. 

[lct]

Hard to use a flash together with a Visoflex. Easy with the MEV1. Here handheld with an Ultron 90 at f/2. Great little lens BTW. Xmas preparation.

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[jaapv]

Yeah but for the use of the Visoflex -lenses over 135 and under 28 the use of a flash is quite rare. And if that is handheld, where does the flash come from?  Or EVF for that matter?  I never use one for Christmas Tree shots, nor for 90 mm lenses when there is an RF available. Actually I shoot up to 200 mm with the RF. 

[lct]

13 minutes ago, jaapv said:

[...] if that is handheld, where does the flash come from?  Or Visoflex for that matter? [...]

Strange questions but if of any interest, Leica SF 26 in LED mode. As for the Visoflex, i could not have used that of my M11 together with the flash. Hope this helps...

[charlesphoto99]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Woud you mind to explain why? In my admittedly short experience, the MEV1 can be used with flash at any focal length with no accessory finder.

Sorry, I meant versus a traditional M where using a wider lens is difficult with a flash due to no ability to add an external finder. I personally use a Profoto A1 in manual mode off camera and a Connect puck in the hot shoe, and if using a 24 or 18 just shoot away, guessing the framing. 

[bcaslis]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Given that the M has the option of an auxiliary EVF since 2013, it does not add much more than integration. At the expense of versatility. 

Yes, and I value the integration over the versatility of the M11 (and the better EVF in the EV1). Not everyone wants the same thing.

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[Pelu2010]

Hey, I don’t know why the option of evf and flash was taken for the m11. The evf is enormous and even a simple adapter that lets you add a pc sync port. It’s one of those features that makes friends. Just to have the option. And I would also be ok if the usbc port could be turned into a sync port by adding a adapter and a wireless trigger.

The thing is: most of the noctilux, nocton & lenses are very good for portraits. And yes you may shoot portraits without flash. But there a many situation where a flash is superior than shooting without. And with digital it’s much easier to learn flash or strobe photography. 
And the only way to extend the community is by adding photographers to the group not removing them. And I think the the people that spend that amount of money by shooting a 50mm without flash are in the group , not outside. And most of the people in the group do not change their behavior. So if you want to change the size of the group, you need to add some feature that make that happen. And people /street with flash is a big group. 

I would also buy a grip with a pc port, but it’s not available. 
For me that was a disappointment. 

So I switch sometimes to the M240 with grip.