Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder

[LocalHero1953]

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I would also guess enough to make it worth developing the EV-2.

[SrMi]

38 minutes ago, algrove said:

As I found out and reminded myself just yesterday, when I want an EVF the Viso2 is fine with me. After using it on an M11 for 3 years and on M10 and earlier models for many more years, I will stick with the add-on EVF. In the end a built-in EVF on a manual focus camera/lenses is not needed by myself. 

Once this model was introduced I sold one M11P and M11M (I owned 2 of each) and decided to get a second X2Dii which is the best EVF camera I have owned to date including the SL3 and SL3S and also the SL2 and SL2S models. The Q's are OK, but in the end I prefer changing lenses.

Unfortunately for me, my X2D II cannot replace my SL, M, or Q cameras. And vice versa.

 

[Homo Faber]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

Unfortunately for me, my X2D II cannot replace my SL, M, or Q cameras. And vice versa.

 

In what regard do you think the SL3  excels over the the X2DII ?

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I would say 'enough'.

Without knowing the target set by Leica that would mean that few are enough   Sometimes it works (S, M8) sometimes it doesn’t ( X Vario, XU) 

[SrMi]

26 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

In what regard do you think the SL3  excels over the the X2DII ?

These are the advantages of SL3 over X2DII 100C that come to my mind.

- LV highlight clipping, an essential tool to nail exposure. The small histogram is not precise enough to detect unwanted clipping.

- Availability (variation) of zooms and lenses.

- LPC

- Better EVF activation (Mark II is better than Mark I, but is still flaky)

- EVF extended mode. I find it highly annoying to have LV running continuously on the LCD, but it is easy to quickly put the camera to sleep with the well-placed sleep button.

- Generally, a nimbler camera.

Needless to say, X2D II also has clear advantages over SL3.

[SrMi]

51 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Without knowing the target set by Leica that would mean that few are enough   Sometimes it works (S, M8) sometimes it doesn’t ( X Vario, XU) 

Since the camera shares much with the M11, I assume the target numbers are much lower than for cameras produced in a separate line.

[jaapv]

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I’m sure as well. However, back with the introduction of the S, the target was 1000/ year. And I seem to recall that the total production of the M9M was 5000. 

[Homo Faber]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

These are the advantages of SL3 over X2DII 100C that come to my mind.

- LV highlight clipping, an essential tool to nail exposure. The small histogram is not precise enough to detect unwanted clipping.

- Availability (variation) of zooms and lenses.

- LPC

- Better EVF activation (Mark II is better than Mark I, but is still flaky)

- EVF extended mode. I find it highly annoying to have LV running continuously on the LCD, but it is easy to quickly put the camera to sleep with the well-placed sleep button.

- Generally, a nimbler camera.

Needless to say, X2D II also has clear advantages over SL3.

Thanks.

So what are the clear advantages of the X2DII?

[SrMi]

33 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

Thanks.

So what are the clear advantages of the X2DII?

This is what comes to my mind:

- Resolution and sensor size

- Better stabilization

- Lightweight package with V lenses

- Focus bracketing

- Cost

[SrMi]

57 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I’m sure as well. However, back with the introduction of the S, the target was 1000/ year. And I seem to recall that the total production of the M9M was 5000. 

How about niche within niche: M-EV1 Monochrom. 🤣

I would buy it.

[Tailwagger]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Yes, but how many new M users will this camera attract? That is the discussion here. I would say: few. 

Few, enough, whatever. Either way, I find it disingenous to suggest that the current offering provides any reasonable gauge for the potential of a sophisticated EVF only M Mount camera. What the EV-1 sales, after the shine wears off, will demonstrate is how much can be achieved without doing anything special, ie. a minimal effort will tell you what the minimum market looks like.

It might not even do that.  We know there are many on these pages that already use the the SL for mounting M glass. How many of these folks are willing to trade IBIS, let alone the ability to mount AF lenses for a weight reduction, auto zoom and the oft denied improved WA corner performance?  We know there are at least as many others, such as myself, who have gone the Viso route. How many of them are interested in jettisoning the OVF just to rid themselves of the Viso?  Not me.

We already knew, just from those two contingents, that EVF use with M glass is a thing and an important one.  How important? How many Viso2s have been sold, how many L adapter Ms walk out the door?  Like you, I expect after the initial euphoria that the EV-1 will do little to alter what those numbers all ready tell us. Why should it, given it does so little to alter the basic MF/EVF equations in the Leicaverse? 

Now to be clear Jaap, as I sense you are confusing me for someone actually desires an EV only M, for the umpteenth time until further notice, I have little interest in such a camera. I long ago made my peace with dual finders and value the OVF for a number of tasks and circumstances that I am loathe to give up just to save a few quid. But given my advancing years, I do have a very strong interest in advancing the state of manual focusing in the digital age. And that is where the EV-1 is a missed opportunity.

Improving the manual focus experience on the EVF side can, if carefully considered, bring benefits to the M whether it sports an EVF or not. Something as mundane as a more modern take on focus confirmation, be via Lidar, PDAF, what-have-you, benefits everyone regardless of finder. That is what at a minimum I had hoped to see movement toward which is why AFAIC the EV-1 intro is largely a snoozer (heated back and forths around here, excepted, of course... those can be quite entertaining).

Edited November 10 by Tailwagger

[Steve Ash]

vor einer Stunde schrieb SrMi:

How about niche within niche: M-EV1 Monochrom. 🤣

I would buy it.

My point of view of niche within a niche is: M-EV1-D

When you have an integrated E.V. the logical sense for a camera that follows the concept of “The essential” could be to remove the (2nd) screen.

[lct]

11 minutes ago, Steve Ash said:

[...] When you have an integrated E.V. the logical sense for a camera that follows the concept of “The essential” could be to remove the (2nd) screen.

Would be painful to navigate in the menu with the EVF only IMHO. In EVF extended mode, the back screen remains black as long as you don't press a button. FWIW.

[algrove]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

This is what comes to my mind:

- Resolution and sensor size

- Better stabilization

- Lightweight package with V lenses

- Focus bracketing

- Cost

How about 1TB internal memory.

My X2Dii start up is fast enough to have it on when I bring it up to my eye after activation.

UI-incredibly well done

Nimbler? The X2Dii grip is better for me, but one is not better than the other.

Clipping-both cameras show a smallish histogram, but I have not clipped the 7000 shots so far on my X2Dii. Keep in mind on replay the X2Dii shows RGB plus gray and the Leica shows only grey where one color could be clipped. The EV scale also keeps me from clipping. 

Availability- Sure few want the SL3 now once the X2Dii came out.

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, Steve Ash said:

...remove the (2nd) screen.

 

1 hour ago, lct said:

Would be painful to navigate in the menu with the EVF only...

Hmmm... given the community's desire for infinite variation and my desire for world peace, at least between the OVF and EVF factions, perhaps we need a proposal for an M with no finder at all, just the rear display.  Everyone could unite against that! 😆

 

[Steve Ash]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb Tailwagger:

 

Hmmm... given the community's desire for infinite variation and my desire for world peace, at least between the OVF and EVF factions, perhaps we need a proposal for an M with no finder at all, just the rear display.  Everyone could unite against that! 😆

 

Yes, there are infinite opportunities to mess anything up 😂

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, algrove said:

How about 1TB internal memory.

That is nice, but I do not use it (CFE card).

2 hours ago, algrove said:

My X2Dii start up is fast enough to have it on when I bring it up to my eye after activation.

The problem is with the angles at which the camera is held. Sometimes, when I bring the camera to my eye, the EVF doesn't activate unless I do some head gymnastics.

2 hours ago, algrove said:

Nimbler? The X2Dii grip is better for me, but one is not better than the other.

Shorter blackout, quicker to operate. Forgot to mention that SL3 has faster sensor readout (better when using electronic shutter).

2 hours ago, algrove said:

Clipping-both cameras show a smallish histogram, but I have not clipped the 7000 shots so far on my X2Dii. Keep in mind on replay the X2Dii shows RGB plus gray and the Leica shows only grey where one color could be clipped. The EV scale also keeps me from clipping. 

SL3 has highlight clipping warnings (blinkies), whereas X2D does not. I do not see how EV scale can keep you from clipping.

If you have never clipped at first shot, then you have wasted lights regularly. My process is to take an image with my guesstimate of EC (or EV scale in M mode), review it with the beautiful, large RGB histogram, and then retake it with adjusted EC if I see bothersome clipping or if I am more than 1 stop away from the edge.

Another benefit of SL3: matrix metering and highlight-weighted metering. However, with experience, X2D's metering is good enough.

2 hours ago, algrove said:

Availability- Sure few want the SL3 now once the X2Dii came out.

Do not see why that would be the case.

P.S.: Forgot an advantage of X2D - no video!

Edited November 10 by SrMi

[charlesphoto99]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Would be painful to navigate in the menu with the EVF only IMHO. In EVF extended mode, the back screen remains black as long as you don't press a button. FWIW.

No different than using the M10-D or M11-D. You would use your phone. 

[lct]

11 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

No different than using the M10-D or M11-D. You would use your phone. 

I'm from the telephone generation

 

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Hallo,

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[algrove]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

That is nice, but I do not use it (CFE card).

The problem is with the angles at which the camera is held. Sometimes, when I bring the camera to my eye, the EVF doesn't activate unless I do some head gymnastics.

Shorter blackout, quicker to operate. Forgot to mention that SL3 has faster sensor readout (better when using electronic shutter).

SL3 has highlight clipping warnings (blinkies), whereas X2D does not. I do not see how EV scale can keep you from clipping.

If you have never clipped at first shot, then you have wasted lights regularly. My process is to take an image with my guesstimate of EC (or EV scale in M mode), review it with the beautiful, large RGB histogram, and then retake it with adjusted EC if I see bothersome clipping or if I am more than 1 stop away from the edge.

Another benefit of SL3: matrix metering and highlight-weighted metering. However, with experience, X2D's metering is good enough.

Do not see why that would be the case.

P.S.: Forgot an advantage of X2D - no video!

Just to be clear the SL3 does not have an RGB histogram on grey.

Horses for courses. For me the SL3 is no match for the X2Dii. You keep saying X2D, but I am talking the latest model (X2Dii) versus the SL3.