maxpower Posted October 28 Share #621 Posted October 28 Advertisement (gone after registration) 13 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said: No idea how this seeing outside the lens you have on would work. Would there be a micro lens somewhere on the body that changes to a focal length one below the lens connected? Pipe dream stuff imo. The proposed solution by the person I quoted was using a bigger sensor to use more of the image circle to display in EVF but only capture a regular full frame picture. I do not support his ideas or opinions, and as I wrote in my comment don't think it would be useful or work in practice either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 28 Posted October 28 Hi maxpower, Take a look here Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
FrankGosebruch Posted October 28 Share #622 Posted October 28 vor 18 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99: No idea how this seeing outside the lens you have on would work. Would there be a micro lens somewhere on the body that changes to a focal length one below the lens connected? Pipe dream stuff imo. Outside the lens? No, this topic only refers to the area outside (around) the viewfinder's bright light frame, which has been used in Leica M cameras for decades. Did you never held a Leica M, Nikon SP, Canon 7, or Hexar RF in your hands watching through the finder? See an example here (Nikon SP): https://gosebru.ch/media/images/31-large.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 28 Share #623 Posted October 28 Bigger sensor = bigger camera… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 28 Share #624 Posted October 28 Just now, maxpower said: The proposed solution by the person I quoted was using a bigger sensor to use more of the image circle to display in EVF but only capture a regular full frame picture. I do not support his ideas or opinions, and as I wrote in my comment don't think it would be useful or work in practice either. I realize that, and that you don't. Just replying generally, sorry. His idea is like the proverbial pony for Christmas. Lots of want, but little actual reality as to how it could be achieved. I think for the next gen, Leica will be better off exploring PiP options with the EVF, and replicating a magnified focus patch in that way, versus the entire frame magnifying and losing sight of the scene. The magnified 'patch' could then be moved to wherever one wants to anchor it on the screen (at the bottom for most I would assume) while one moves the actual focus point around to where it's need at any given time. It's what they should have done to begin with imo and is not a huge technological leap, though may require a bit more horsepower than the CPU they're using. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 28 Share #625 Posted October 28 (edited) 9 minutes ago, FrankGosebruch said: Outside the lens? No, this topic only refers to the area outside (around) the viewfinder's bright light frame, which has been used in Leica M cameras for decades. Did you never held a Leica M, Nikon SP, Canon 7, or Hexar RF in your hands watching through the finder? See an example here (Nikon SP): https://gosebru.ch/media/images/31-large.jpg Which is outside what the lens is seeing. Are you sure you know how an M finder works? So tell me how does that work with an EVF? How does the area outside what the lens is seeing get there in the first place? If I put on an 18mm, does the camera then need an interior 15mm lens in the finder to see outside that? Edited October 28 by charlesphoto99 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 28 Share #626 Posted October 28 4 minutes ago, FrankGosebruch said: this topic only refers to the area outside (around) the viewfinder's bright light frame, which has been used in Leica M cameras for decades. The M11 has electronic framelines for digital zoom and perspective control too. One can see outside of those framelines as well. I suspect the MEV1 did not change anything in this respect but i have no experience with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankGosebruch Posted October 28 Share #627 Posted October 28 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 16 Minuten schrieb jaapv: Bigger sensor = bigger camera… No, I disagree! I still remember when the Leica M5 was introduced. The body was suddenly significantly larger, and all customers were dissatisfied with the camera. Leica simply said: The camera now has an internal light meter, so the exterior had to be larger as well, there's no other way, just buy it anyway! The camera then turned out to be a resounding failure. Well... and then, sometime later, the Leica M6 came along, and suddenly it became possible to integrate the light meter into the old body. The M EV1 no longer has a bulky mechanical rangefinder built in. I expect that the freed-up space will be put to good use in the subsequent Leica M EV2 at the latest (larger sensor, bright lines, pop-up EVF, better WiFi router...) ...just my 2 cents Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankGosebruch Posted October 28 Share #628 Posted October 28 vor 8 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99: Which is outside what the lens is seeing. Are you sure you know how an M finder works? So tell me how does that work with an EVF? How does the area outside what the lens is seeing get there in the first place? If I put on an 18mm, does the camera then need an interior 15mm lens in the finder to see outside that? Well, above I already wrote about it: Just size up the sensor and shutter. Just read! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 28 Share #629 Posted October 28 10 minutes ago, FrankGosebruch said: No, I disagree! I still remember when the Leica M5 was introduced. The body was suddenly significantly larger, and all customers were dissatisfied with the camera. Leica simply said: The camera now has an internal light meter, so the exterior had to be larger as well, there's no other way, just buy it anyway! The camera then turned out to be a resounding failure. Well... and then, sometime later, the Leica M6 came along, and suddenly it became possible to integrate the light meter into the old body. The M EV1 no longer has a bulky mechanical rangefinder built in. I expect that the freed-up space will be put to good use in the subsequent Leica M EV2 at the latest (larger sensor, bright lines, pop-up EVF, better WiFi router...) ...just my 2 cents You’d be surprised how little extra space has been freed up. If that were the case the M-EV1 would have had video and/or IBIS. The objection against the M5 was more against the shape than the size. And the discontinuation more a result of the dominance of SLRs. M6TTL, M8/9/240 were all accepted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankGosebruch Posted October 28 Share #630 Posted October 28 vor 14 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99: Which is outside what the lens is seeing. Are you sure you know how an M finder works? So tell me how does that work with an EVF? How does the area outside what the lens is seeing get there in the first place? If I put on an 18mm, does the camera then need an interior 15mm lens in the finder to see outside that? Uhmm... the image cycles of Leica lenses don't stop exactly at the 24x36mm frame of the shutter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankGosebruch Posted October 28 Share #631 Posted October 28 vor 17 Minuten schrieb lct: The M11 has electronic framelines for digital zoom and perspective control too. One can see outside of those framelines as well. I suspect the MEV1 did not change anything in this respect but i have no experience with it. That's true. But digital zoom (cropping) just leads to lower resolution for the final image. That's not what I want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 28 Share #632 Posted October 28 Just now, FrankGosebruch said: Well, above I already wrote about it: Just size up the sensor and shutter. Just read! Sizing up the sensor/shutter doesn't matter (and wouldn't fit in the mouth of an M mount as it is). So even if there's a bigger sensor, what lens is it that is showing outside the frame lines of the specific focal length put on the camera? The traditional finder of the M is approx a 24mm field of view. It's a window, no more no less. I can put any lens on it under 28mm and see the frame lines and outside of them, with more space outside as one goes longer on focal length. So what mechanism exactly would allow this with an EVF? It's basic mechanics. With an EVF, one sees what the lens sees. Just like an SLR. Unless Leica overlays on an optical window (which has its own drawbacks as the image would get smaller and smaller as one goes longer) there's just no way to do this, period. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 28 Share #633 Posted October 28 1 minute ago, FrankGosebruch said: That's true. But digital zoom (cropping) just leads to lower resolution for the final image. That's not what I want. I can understand that but Leica did not promise anything else for the MEV1. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankGosebruch Posted October 28 Share #634 Posted October 28 vor 14 Minuten schrieb lct: I can understand that but Leica did not promise anything else for the MEV1. That's true. I actually didn't write about Leica's promises, but about what I personally expected and desired. That sounds arrogant, but I'm just a little disappointed with the camera - that's it. Look, we live here in Germany in an extremely high-wage country. That's why we can only manufacture and export products that are exceptionally good or unique. Only then our necessarily high prices will be paid by our cutomers (Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Deckel or Trumpf machines, Leopard tanks, Airbus, Zeiss... and Leica, of course). I consider it counterproductive to try to survive only on historical laurels – or a dying aura. So, if Leica now (once again) starts offering mediocre and technologically immature products and then still charges Class A prices for them, that's – at least in my opinion – the wrong approach. With the Leica M EV1, I expected a sensational, technologically exceptional product that would awaken desires. Then I wouldn't have cared about the price in the end. But it isn't! Sorry, but I'd rather wait for the M EV2. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 28 Share #635 Posted October 28 5 minutes ago, FrankGosebruch said: [...] With the Leica M EV1, I expected a sensational, technologically exceptional product that would awaken desires [...] Got it, but this was neither what Leica promised, nor what its customers desired, at least people like me who simply wanted an M11 with an EVF in place of the RF. For innovation, i'd rather wait and see what the M12 will be. Happy snaps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 28 Share #636 Posted October 28 45 minutes ago, FrankGosebruch said: Well, above I already wrote about it: Just size up the sensor and shutter. Just read! You cannot just size up a sensor. The sensor manufacturers create sensors in specific sizes. If you had a larger sensor, you would not want to waste the sensor area for viewing only. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lik Posted October 28 Share #637 Posted October 28 vor einer Stunde schrieb jaapv: Bigger sensor = bigger camera… Unless the FF is a Leica SL or a LUMIX S1((R) and the MF is a Hassy X2D I or II 😉 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankGosebruch Posted October 28 Share #638 Posted October 28 vor 1 Minute schrieb lct: Got it, but this was neither what Leica promised, nor what its customers desired, at least people like me who simply wanted an M11 with an EVF in place of the RF. For innovation, i'd rather wait and see what the M12 will be. Happy snaps OK! But - just admit - the minimum then would have been a built-in flip-up EVF, like the Visoflex 2 on my M11 P: https://gosebru.ch/media/images/Leica M11-P VF HG Lux28 1600.jpg Right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 28 Share #639 Posted October 28 12 minutes ago, lik said: Unless the FF is a Leica SL or a LUMIX S1((R) and the MF is a Hassy X2D I or II 😉 Yeah-but Leica had enough trouble squeezing this one into a 1954 body. See the M8 and the M11 would have IBIS if there were any space. The Hasselblad was designed ground up around the larger sensor. Engineering wise a completely different proposition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 28 Share #640 Posted October 28 Just now, FrankGosebruch said: OK! But - just admit - the minimum then would have been a built-in flip-up EVF, like the Visoflex 2 on my M11 P: https://gosebru.ch/media/images/Leica M11-P VF HG Lux28 1600.jpg Right? I had to kneel down with the Visoflex2 to take this photo, and with my arthose, i couldn't do it with a rangefinder nor the MEV1 presumably. I don't know if it would have been possible to mount a tilting EVF in the MEV1 body while keeping the dimensions of the M11, but again, to be honest, Leica never promised that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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