Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder

[mujk]

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2 hours ago, dsalamena said:

Completely agree with your two concerns. I'm sure these are concers that were raised also by testers, but evidently Leica decided to take the easiest way: just put an EVF into a Leica M-Q body.

One can wonder if by mere chance the next model will come with at least a proper focusing system. An M-EVF camera needs a reliable and quick focussing system, otherwise it misses the whole point of abandoning the rangefinder.

I have the same concerns.

Regarding focussing aids, the problem with the M system is that there is no aperture control linkage between the lenses and the body, something that has existed in all SLRs since the 1960s, and which makes it possible to focus with the aperture fully open even if the aperture ring is set to a stopped down value. This limitation causes problems with PDAF, which is based on the phase difference of light rays come in through different paths. One big benefit of PDAF is that it can easily determine in which direction the focussiong ring should be turned to achieve focus, someting a manual focussing aid would need. A contrast-based AF system cannot generate this direction information easily.

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[Robert Blanko]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb sebas_:

I have thought Leica would put in the effort to come up with more innovative focus aids. Just peaking and zoom seems a bit underwhelming.
I was convinced that if they release an EVF version, it will certainly have some unique manual focus aids. 
64GB storage seems like they just had a stockpile of units from the M11 laying around - why not just put in 265 GB? 

I think it's good that Leica added this options to the line-up, but it just feels underwhelming for the price.
I was contemplating before to get one, but will not. Too expensive for what it turned out to be.  

This is almost exactly what I thought when reading the specs.

I don't see much added value over my M11-D or M11-P with visoflex - which by the way I bought as a matter of precaution for the 21SEM but actually never used so far.

Just cramming an EVF into the M11 is IMHO only half the solution. The other half would have been to implement more sophisticated and innovative manual focussing assistance, such as Nikon implemented for the Zf and beyond. 

It's not exaggerating to say that Leica is not a front-runner of EVF manual focussing tech.

[Jon D]

From what I’ve seen, the MEV1 is aimed at two distinct groups - existing M rangefinder users with deteriorating eyes, and people who want to get into the M system but who are either intimidated by the rangefinder or have deteriorating eyes.
 

In the case of the first group, the decision is then between trading your existing M rangefinder for the MEV1. Or buy a Visoflex. That seems to me to be an obvious choice in favour of the Visoflex.

For the second group, you’re likely to acquire the MEV1 with 1 lens, and it probably won’t be an APO. I think the Q3’s that cone WITH an APO are a much better (and significantly less expensive) option with the added benefit of having a choice between manual focussing in the same way that MEV1 delivers it AND clever autofocus options.

There may be more to it than that, and time will tell. 

[Alexander108]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Jon D:

From what I’ve seen, the MEV1 is aimed at two distinct groups - existing M rangefinder users with deteriorating eyes, and people who want to get into the M system but who are either intimidated by the rangefinder or have deteriorating eyes. 

I just bought my M10-M in July and then traded my Q3 for a preowned M11. I am wondering why so many people say that the RF is intimidating. Before I got my M10-M people told me you only get sharp pictures after so and so much practice. But that wasn't the case at all. It is different. Yes. But nothing that anyone who uses cameras can deal with. The main challenge is not focusing but composition / framing, especially if you use a lens that is too wide or too long (90mm works pretty fine with the RF in my case). Knowing that I bought a Visoflex from the very beginning because live view feels awkward to me. 

One major advantage of the EVF (that includes the Visoflex) is controlling exposure. With capture assistants on (blown highlights are blinking plus histogram) it is ever so fast to compensate with EV to get the exposure to the right. Even on the Monochrom. This is what I was used to with every other camera (including the Q3) I used in the past 20y.

[snooper]

The main issue with our beloved M on the most recent iterations is not the view finder, but more certainly the efforts one has to make to get non blurry shots due to camera shake, vibrations, etc. 

IMHO this is what was only partially solved by Leica as they introduced the Qs with IBIS. Give me an M11 less prone to blurs of any kind, and I wont need an EVF or any other gadget.

[AdamSinger]

I use my M11M with with EVF a lot. A boon for ageing eyes that  have used rangefinders, since the Beatles broke up.  I  like faster longer lenses. so this EVF camera has appeal but  I am puzzled by the cost. Not the amount per se but why that amount? I was naively hoping for something costing about the same as an SL3s. I have had SLs, for me too big too heavy. Is getting EVF gubbins into an M body  that much of a  challenge and that costly?  Can some one with  expertise in sensor and EVF shoe horning  explain the problem, beyond “its a Leica  dude,  miniaturisation is pricey”. Cheers A.

[keeping_a_balance]

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I like that they are trying something, but was expecting more:

-Focus aid, underwhelming.

-They have better processors they should have used them here.

-Really think they needed to use the Q battery (does that mean a QM rather than an EVF M - maybe, but that would have been better).

-Refresh rate seems underwhelming.  

I have not held it or seen it, but with the amount of big name photographers now posting about it in reels etc is a clear indication this is pure marketing and not engineer driven.  

To that extent I hope it sells well so they continue to develop something better for the future as can appreciate a small form factor with a good evf and a hotshoe.  

As some have mentioned doing this L mount in a small package would be more versatile and something I would be much more interested in.

For now, I will stick to my SL3 for evf M needs….

 

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, mujk said:

I don't quite see the similarity between the EV-1 and the M60. AFAIK the M60 has an  OVF/RF like all other M cameras manufactured for the last 30 years or so, except the EV-1. Of course there were discussions about the removal of the frameline illumination window and other things, but these were minor changes compared to the removal of the OVF/RF. So I think the discussion is a bit different now.

?

[lik]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb elmars:

The ISO dial had to be omitted because the EVF is too large. The lack of the dial is only really annoying if you don't want to work in auto ISO mode and adjust the ISO frequently.

 

Thanks @elmars for this information. 
In that case, it’s a really fair acceptable decision  

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, mujk said:

I have the same concerns.

Regarding focussing aids, the problem with the M system is that there is no aperture control linkage between the lenses and the body, something that has existed in all SLRs since the 1960s, and which makes it possible to focus with the aperture fully open even if the aperture ring is set to a stopped down value. This limitation causes problems with PDAF, which is based on the phase difference of light rays come in through different paths. One big benefit of PDAF is that it can easily determine in which direction the focussiong ring should be turned to achieve focus, someting a manual focussing aid would need. A contrast-based AF system cannot generate this direction information easily.

The M-EV1 needs LiDAR :). OSPDAF works with apertures f/5.6 and probably f/11 as well (have to verify). Adding OSPDAF to the Ms sensors (RF and EV models) solely to improve EV focus confirmation does not make sense.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, lik said:

Thanks @elmars for this information. 
In that case, it’s a really fair acceptable decision  

A quicker way to change the ISO when using an EVF is to press the rear button and turn the dial to the desired ISO value (default setting)

[kiwidad]

14 hours ago, wolan said:

Thank you, Leica. This is the camera I have been waiting for years. Now that I see it, it makes me proud to have switched to Hasselblad one year ago.

 

 

I would have gone to the ‘Blad side if carrying a system around was lighter than having a brick in my bag … and then the bag also weights more as it’s bigger to hold the ‘Blad!

I owned an sl2 for a few months and the weight was just too much for my old Nikon thrashed back! 

[kiwidad]

7 hours ago, Foxtwo said:

Wish I still traveled to where Leica stores were plentiful to give it a try!

Ditto on that.

Since it’s not in the US yet a trip to Canada for a weekend might be in order just to touch and play.

 

[kiwidad]

4 hours ago, Paulus said:

The Nikon F801 already had this confirmation system in 1991 if i remember well..

It was horrible! It was identical to the next model up which added AF. I found watching for confirmation was a huge distraction and you reframed after confirming focus on the subject you wanted to be sharply in focus it worked as well as AF does today in many cases at picking the wrong spot to focus on!

[jjroroek]

wow, i was waiting for this. a year ago i swithed from the m10r to the q3 because of the evf en de ibs in the q3. so this is a good step forward to switch back bust still some questions.

- the evf shows the real picture but how dous it react on changing the aparture.

- for best sharpness do i have to focus with open aparture? 

 

[kiwidad]

2 hours ago, Jon D said:

From what I’ve seen, the MEV1 is aimed at two distinct groups - existing M rangefinder users with deteriorating eyes, and people who want to get into the M system but who are either intimidated by the rangefinder or have deteriorating eyes.
 

In the case of the first group, the decision is then between trading your existing M rangefinder for the MEV1. Or buy a Visoflex. That seems to me to be an obvious choice in favour of the Visoflex.

 

I am that person in your first group.

if I shoot over 50mm the visoflex is on. If critical focus in difficult subject matter is needed it’s visoflex time. If the subject insists on moving adding a 1.25 or 1.4x eyepiece magnifier works better for me that the viso.

for the Summilux 75 if shooting at wider apertures then its visotime.

in tourist mode the 35 or 28 lux is rangefinder.

i lose my options with the EV1 especially in low contrast dark lighting where the viso is tricky.

[jjroroek]

18 hours ago, rtai said:

So then why not have IBIS? Why go half way? Any mirrorless can do what this high hurdle can and with IBIS and AF with 3rd party mount adapter.

the m evf is a trial of Leica. if this m evf will adapted the m12 will be with evf and ibis.. i geuss the biggests  problem will be focussing with closed aparture 

[kiwidad]

8 minutes ago, jjroroek said:

wow, i was waiting for this. a year ago i swithed from the m10r to the q3 because of the evf en de ibs in the q3. so this is a good step forward to switch back bust still some questions.

- the evf shows the real picture but how dous it react on changing the aparture.

- for best sharpness do i have to focus with open aparture? 

 

Assuming it’s just a visoflex built in, the EVF image is going to show exactly what you will get when you take the picture.

and ideally you will want to pick the middle of what shows peaking to get the best sharpness. Unless you have all FLE lenses or those that have no focus shift focusing wide open then stopping down will burn you sooner or later.

personally with the visoflex lag I try to not use it unless I have to and shoot under 50mm if I can 

 

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[Parolibre]

I think it’s good that we get a so called EVF version of M11: however two factors really confuse me: the price and the lack of effort from Leica. For almost 9K USD I don’t see myself choosing this over SL3, especially since the EVF on the EV-1 is similar to the one on Q, not the one on the SL3. 

[evikne]

I guess that many 75mm Summiluxes and other notoriously miscalibrated and difficult-to-focus lenses will now be taken out and brought back to life. 😊