Fotogo Posted January 20, 2008 Share #101 Posted January 20, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry, but this design will not allow a large enough safety margin between the "live" high voltage connections and the "safe" low voltage side. This is required to prevent leakage across the circuit board in humid conditions and, because there is no safety ground, it's a case of electrocution waiting to happen. You can see how they do it on the Leica charger - clear space between the high and low voltage sides - the small island is used by safety components. [ATTACH]70680[/ATTACH] Mark, looking at Canon's version, I see a 'gap' of a maximum of 14mm and a minimum of 6.8mm in the separation of high and low voltage components. Do you also think that their values are adequate, or should be increased. I am hopeful that some manipulation of these components on the Franken II can resolve the conflict. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 Hi Fotogo, Take a look here Any sign of the Hahnel twin charger yet?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
neelin Posted January 20, 2008 Share #102 Posted January 20, 2008 As Steve says, you also need a charge controller to charge the battery properly and there's this chip which has the minimum external component count to do the job. Cost about $3 each in small quantities. Only issue is whether the thermistor inside the battery pack is commoned to ground or battery +, I can't remember. This chip has the advantage that it does not require a space consuming inductor (the do-nut shaped component in the Leica charger) but the downside is that the chip will get hot and will need some sort of heat sinking, possibly to the external (metal) case. http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0806/0900766b808065cb.pdf Mark, I see this chip has a 5v input. Is it possible to charge these batteries at lower than the "specified" current, i.e. whatever a USB spec. port will give out? Then the charger would need only this chip and plug into a USB, but need a longer charge time because of the reduced rate. That would make a minimum charger a 6" USB plug/cord and a little head to clip onto the battery & dissipate some heat from the charge controller. Given most people using a lot of battery power will be taking a lot of pictures, which means they'll be near a device that has USB. I even had an APC laptop charger that had 2 USB power ports on it. There also the commonly available integrated Carplug/USB power plug-ins, that would complete the 12V. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted January 20, 2008 Share #103 Posted January 20, 2008 Here's a thought (from someone who once designed power supplies for a living, btw). It's going to be pretty expensive to something from scratch. What about the following; Find a charger (from Nikon, or Canon, etc) that uses 3.7V batteries, then just design an adapter plate that on one side looks like a Nikon/Canon/whatever battery, and can lock to the charger, and on the other side couples to a Leica battery. Hopefully just a a few mm thick.... Quick, easy, no regulatory approvals, and Tim could probably build in low volumes.... Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 20, 2008 Share #104 Posted January 20, 2008 OK. in Tim's picture, we have the high voltage "P" side on the bottom left, low voltage secondary side on the top and left, with cutouts to increase the ffective distance between primary and secondary. The black component is an optical isolator which is used to regulate the supply without an electrical connection between them. IMHO, the only sensible way to produce this and meet the saftety requirements is to use a pre-built power supply of the type I showed above. As for distance, I'd recommend a minimum of 12mm. Don't forget a fuse will be required as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 20, 2008 Share #105 Posted January 20, 2008 Here's a thought (from someone who once designed power supplies for a living, btw). It's going to be pretty expensive to something from scratch. What about the following; Find a charger (from Nikon, or Canon, etc) that uses 3.7V batteries, then just design an adapter plate that on one side looks like a Nikon/Canon/whatever battery, and can lock to the charger, and on the other side couples to a Leica battery. Hopefully just a a few mm thick.... Quick, easy, no regulatory approvals, and Tim could probably build in low volumes.... Sandy I agree it's going to be expensive and the volumes are unlikely to be of interest to the average Chinese manufacturer. It would be possible to use an existing charger, but it would need re-programming (different component values) to match the charging characteristics of the battery. The existing Leica charger has a 5v regulator with the PWM controlled charge pump (IIRC) being fed from around the raw 12v coming in from the power supply or car battery connector. Don't know what happens if you limit the charge current to the USB 0.5A limit. In my experience, laptops have trouble supplying even that. That's why I run my charger from a lap-top brick which I'm certain to have with me anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted January 21, 2008 Share #106 Posted January 21, 2008 Here's a thought (from someone who once designed power supplies for a living, btw). It's going to be pretty expensive to something from scratch. What about the following; Find a charger (from Nikon, or Canon, etc) that uses 3.7V batteries, then just design an adapter plate that on one side looks like a Nikon/Canon/whatever battery, and can lock to the charger, and on the other side couples to a Leica battery. Hopefully just a a few mm thick.... Quick, easy, no regulatory approvals, and Tim could probably build in low volumes.... Sandy If it proves necessary to go down the road of modifying an existing charger, then the Leica D-Lux-3 charger should be considered. It is truly tiny and uses the figure 8 flying lead. A new top plate moulding might do the trick - particular if it follows Tim's suggested 'surface-mount' approach (in which case an infilling moulding might be possible in the slot for the current flatter but wider D-Lux-3 battery). Question to Leica - Why is it NOT also used for the M8? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 21, 2008 Share #107 Posted January 21, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry to pop up so late with this question: What is "flying mains lead"? Is that what I might call "removable power cord"? The project looks great. Would it make any sense to approach Leica Solms or Leica Allendale directly about selling the product? That would reduce your profit and raise the final cost to the user, but it could mean getting quantities up. Another possibility would be to approach independent Leica sales representatives in the US. Some reps are employed by Leica and might be requested not to sell the compact charger, but a number of them are independent, handle other lines in addition to Leica, and might be quite interested in adding this charger to their product mix. Maybe contact also LHSA? --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 21, 2008 Share #108 Posted January 21, 2008 HC, you need some help with language here! A "mains lead" is the same as a "power chord" - the flying bit means that it is anchored at one end and permanently connected to the device and is NOT removable. The other end is free, ready for connection to either a wall socket or, in and industrial setting, a power bus. A non-starter for this project because an interchangable connection is required for the US, UK, European (2 flavours) and Australian format. Add to that the need for the supply to work from 100-240v 50-60 Hz. Detachable power chords are preferred also because they do not need separate certification. If you have a device with a captive power chord, it forms part of the certification for the device. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share #109 Posted January 21, 2008 HC, you need some help with language here! A "mains lead" is the same as a "power chord" - the flying bit means that it is anchored at one end and permanently connected to the device and is NOT removable. The other end is free, ready for connection to either a wall socket or, in and industrial setting, a power bus. A non-starter for this project because an interchangable connection is required for the US, UK, European (2 flavours) and Australian format. Add to that the need for the supply to work from 100-240v 50-60 Hz. Detachable power chords are preferred also because they do not need separate certification. If you have a device with a captive power chord, it forms part of the certification for the device. Mark, It was me who used the term. I did not mean a fixed lead but a short figure 8 to regional plug lead as opposed to a regional adapter fitting directly into the charger. Of course one can as I set out above, still use an Apple regional plug with a built in figure 8 plug on it. Terminological inexactitude - apologies! Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 21, 2008 Share #110 Posted January 21, 2008 "Chord?" I meant "cord". I was thinking of a UK make of Hi-Fi interconnects called "Chord". One issue with the figure of 8 is that the insertion force is quite high so the connector needs to be firmly anchored to the PCB with secondary mechanical fixing and the PCB to the case. TBH, this Canon charger doesn't look much better than the Leica one though it avoids the horror of the copper screening sheet. I suppose these are very much as the bottom of the electronics food chain. Interesting that RoHS compliant soldering looks rather matt (flat) - in the old days, that would have been the warning sign of a dry joint. No more shiny soldered joints! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted January 21, 2008 Share #111 Posted January 21, 2008 And at this point in the thread I'm asking myself just what's so wrong about the Leica charger that so many people feel compelled to spend yet another $100-200 on a new one? Is it because they've bought all the other accessories available and are still itching for more? The chargers not that bad folks. Remember when you used to have to pack a couple of hundred rolls of film for a trip? I say work on a better grip for the M8 Tim. Now that would be worth spending some more $ on IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share #112 Posted January 21, 2008 And at this point in the thread I'm asking myself just what's so wrong about the Leica charger that so many people feel compelled to spend yet another $100-200 on a new one? Is it because they've bought all the other accessories available and are still itching for more? The chargers not that bad folks. Remember when you used to have to pack a couple of hundred rolls of film for a trip? I say work on a better grip for the M8 Tim. Now that would be worth spending some more $ on IMO. Charles, If you had ever tried to plug it into a wall socket in a difficult position behind a bed in an Indian hotel room, when the socket is falling out of the wall before you start, you would see why I want a small charger on a lead. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted January 21, 2008 Share #113 Posted January 21, 2008 And at this point in the thread I'm asking myself just what's so wrong about the Leica charger that so many people feel compelled to spend yet another $100-200 on a new one? I say work on a better grip for the M8 Tim. Now that would be worth spending some more $ on IMO. Hello Charles, Do you travel with your M8 (and a bunch of other electrical gizmos essential to modern living)? If you do and you're asking such a question, you must love to pack large! The Frankencharger is huge, awkward and falls out of the sockets in funny places with names that end in 'stan, or 'ibia etc. The Victorians used to travel with sea chests. Twentieth Century man discovered Samsonite and in this era of the Jetsons, when every street name in Europe and the US is on my Garmin GPS, I like to pack just a haversack and a bumbag. Right now I need the bumbag for the Frankencharger alone! Please, can I have a tiny charger with a detachable lead that fits all the others chargers I have to take. Please can this tiny charger work in the car and ideally, can I attach a solar panel too? For all that I will gladly pay $100 and more. Pssst: I think Tim's done the grip ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 21, 2008 Share #114 Posted January 21, 2008 And at this point in the thread I'm asking myself just what's so wrong about the Leica charger that so many people feel compelled to spend yet another $100-200 on a new one? I've been thinking the same thing. The present charger is far from a thing of beauty but it works okay and is, for me, easy enough to travel with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted January 21, 2008 Share #115 Posted January 21, 2008 Charles, If you had ever tried to plug it into a wall socket in a difficult position behind a bed in an Indian hotel room, when the socket is falling out of the wall before you start, you would see why I want a small charger on a lead. Wilson I understand. Pack a small extension cord or buy one there and leave it behind. Seriously, I'm just playing devils advocate here. If you want a new charger and have the means to back it by all means go for it. I'm sure you'll sell a few but for me at the moment I'll stick with the "free" one that came with my M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted January 21, 2008 Share #116 Posted January 21, 2008 Hello Charles, Do you travel with your M8 (and a bunch of other electrical gizmos essential to modern living)? If you do and you're asking such a question, you must love to pack large! The Frankencharger is huge, awkward and falls out of the sockets in funny places with names that end in 'stan, or 'ibia etc. The Victorians used to travel with sea chests. Twentieth Century man discovered Samsonite and in this era of the Jetsons, when every street name in Europe and the US is on my Garmin GPS, I like to pack just a haversack and a bumbag. Right now I need the bumbag for the Frankencharger alone! Please, can I have a tiny charger with a detachable lead that fits all the others chargers I have to take. Please can this tiny charger work in the car and ideally, can I attach a solar panel too? For all that I will gladly pay $100 and more. Pssst: I think Tim's done the grip ... No but I've packed a couple hundred rolls of 120 and two medium format bodies and lenses through SE Asia several times. Of course I like to pack light but the M8 charger isn't that bad comparitively. And the size of the M8 and lenses make up for it compared to anything else out there. Anyway I wish Tim and Wilson best of luck. My $ will go for a better grip! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted January 21, 2008 Share #117 Posted January 21, 2008 No but I've packed a couple hundred rolls of 120 and two medium format bodies and lenses through SE Asia several times. Of course I like to pack light but the M8 charger isn't that bad comparitively. And the size of the M8 and lenses make up for it compared to anything else out there. Anyway I wish Tim and Wilson best of luck. My $ will go for a better grip! Hi Charles, This thread is so interesting because it is revealing what a widely varied group we really are. Behind our respective pennies-worth on preferred specifications lie a multitude of different needs as varied as our reasons for owning and loving the M8. Long may it be so! Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted January 21, 2008 Share #118 Posted January 21, 2008 To hijack this thread Back On Target -- 1. I always travel with an extension cord, mult. outlets, and adapters. Otherwise, how do you charge so many different devices.... 2. I have the frankencharger and find it bulky, (according to the pix) poorly constructed, and functional. However, as a Charter Member of the Always Have Two Club, I plan to buy a pair of Tim's chargers as soon as they are ready. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted January 21, 2008 Share #119 Posted January 21, 2008 Hi Charles, This thread is so interesting because it is revealing what a widely varied group we really are. Behind our respective pennies-worth on preferred specifications lie a multitude of different needs as varied as our reasons for owning and loving the M8. Long may it be so! Steve I agree! And as long as we're on the design idea tip for the M8, how about a combo thumbs up and screen protector? A thin metal cover with a pop up hood would be fantastic. A sort of Hoodman without the cheese factor. It could be connected via the hotshoe and could include the thumbs up as well as an extra hotshoe on top for finders. I find the screen on the M8 to be quite vulnerable - I've already scratched mine, and find I'm even scratching it through screen protectors. Its the way I change lenses, an old habit thats hard to break (holding the camera and just changed lens both in the left hand). Would also be nice for those times you just don't want to chimp (or tempted to) as well as better viewing in bright light. It could also have cutouts for the side buttons so they would be recessed as many have done with rubber gaskets. What do you think Tim? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 22, 2008 Share #120 Posted January 22, 2008 HC, you need some help with language here! Thanks, Mark, for helping. "Flying mains lead," huh? Evocative. And it sounds perfectly logical once you explain. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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