johnalex141r Posted January 9, 2008 Share #21 Posted January 9, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) One might find that having an external power supply ("Wall Wart") greatly simplifies regulatory approval, because then it is a low power device. IIRC, that's a big reason why so many devices now have wall-warts for power. Mark Norton's slimming of the Leica Charger might be a good starting point for some research. (see somewhere else in this forum - maybe http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/17072-m8-travel-battery-charger-2.html) JohnS Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 9, 2008 Posted January 9, 2008 Hi johnalex141r, Take a look here Any sign of the Hahnel twin charger yet?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted January 9, 2008 Share #22 Posted January 9, 2008 Here's the start of the thread.. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/17072-m8-travel-battery-charger.html#post178945 That Nikon one looks neat, although I don't think it would supply enough power to charge the Leica battery. I've used nothing but the one shown in the thread for nearly a year now and I power it from the same "brick" I use for a laptop, iPod, Mobile Phone or else charge it from the car. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted January 9, 2008 Share #23 Posted January 9, 2008 OK guys - Tim Isaac and I are in touch with each other and bouncing ideas backwards and forwards. I personally feel the major hurdle is not getting the charger made but getting regulatory approval, both CE and CSA. After all, look what the new TATA car for the Indian market costs, when it does not have to meet EU and US regulations - about €1500. Some of your thoughts please: single battery, dual battery or two models. If two models, the unit cost will inevitably be a bit higher. Does anyone use the 12v car charging facility. Would a solar panel option be bought by many - it would cost about £50/$100 extra. Flying mains lead with figure 8 socket on the charger or built in changeable plugs. Any other suggestions would be welcome. Wilson I use the car charger all the time for both the m8 and my canons. I have my car equipped with a unit which lets me have up to 4 single battery units charging at one time. Please no, changeable plugs, flying mains, yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted January 9, 2008 Share #24 Posted January 9, 2008 If the charger did use a "Wall Wart" type power supply to overcome the approval/regulations problem then an optional cable splitter allowing it to supply two or more chargers would satisfy the requirement of being able to charge more than one battery at a time. ETA: As far as I can see there's no need for the battery to be completely contained within the dimensions of the charger. The battery only has to be slid far enough into a locating channel for connection to be made to the battery contacts. In this way you could have two batteries, half of each overhanging each end of the charger and still keep the dimensions small. It might be worth considering in the design if it's possible for no current to be drawn from the batteries if left in the charger without power being applied. That should allow the batteries to be included in checked baggage since they are installed in a device. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted January 9, 2008 Share #25 Posted January 9, 2008 OK guys - Tim Isaac and I are in touch with each other and bouncing ideas backwards and forwards. I personally feel the major hurdle is not getting the charger made but getting regulatory approval, both CE and CSA. After all, look what the new TATA car for the Indian market costs, when it does not have to meet EU and US regulations - about €1500. Some of your thoughts please: single battery, dual battery or two models. If two models, the unit cost will inevitably be a bit higher. Does anyone use the 12v car charging facility. Would a solar panel option be bought by many - it would cost about £50/$100 extra. Flying mains lead with figure 8 socket on the charger or built in changeable plugs. Any other suggestions would be welcome. Wilson Hi' Wilson, EU and US approval may indeed kill this project because this device is to be made in relatively small volume (unless Tim can design it for wider application). But that's a little challenge for the future ... we mustn't let such a piffling issue dull the enthusiasm for determining a specification and developing some initial proposals to get Tim's brain cogs whirring. So here's my first thoughts: 1 Design led (a Tim strength). 2 A very light and pocketable device for a single battery. 3 This single battery device however, being designed to be 'nested'. In other words, several of the devices can be joined together and operate from a single power supply. This is realistic if the figure 8 power supply and separate power-cable approach is used. Thus, each device would have both female and male connectors, allowing them to be directly connected to each other. (So Wilson, if you had two or three you would'nt need to be getting up in the middle of the night, or at least, not for the sake of your Leica battery-charging regime). 4 The device should have a figure 8 socket and utilise a separate power-cable fitted with the plug of the customer's choice (and maybe throw in the excellent 'Swiss' multi-adaptor too (http://www.swisstravelproducts.com/power/travelusb.html)). 5 My schoolboy electronics fail me - so here's a question: If the device has a separate power cable as suggested above, might it be possible to offer as accessories, the solar charger and car plug, each being connected via the same figure 8 socket? Absolute no-no 1: Extra plug adaptors as per the Frankencharger - they add bulk, complexity and reduce portability. They get lost and they're just naff. Absolute no-no 2: Sharp corners on any part of the device - it will be going in my pocket! Daft idea: If it charges my Leica battery, could it have an outlet which accepts something like the iGO power tips (iGo Store - Power Tips) so I can also charge my 'phone, MP3., PDA etc? If so, I will have entered Nirvana. A truly portable, single charger for all the traveller's essential gadgets - heaven. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share #26 Posted January 9, 2008 If I am going to have anything to do with the design of the charger it will NOT have a wall wart or an intermediary power supply. The whole idea of this is KISS (keep it simple stupid). It may well be that an existing charger manufacturer can modify the battery recess moulding and use the existing electronics. I don't see the M8 battery as having a dramatically different charging regime to similarly sized/voltage/capacity lithium batteries from other digital devices. The tiny charger for my Ricoh GX100 has a higher voltage and current rating than the Leica M8 one but is one quarter or less the size and with no ventilation slots. If only a minority want 12v or solar then it is not going to get these, as they add cost and complexity. Now guys it is time to p**s or get off the pot. What would you pay for a small single battery charger, given that it is a very small production run. I would guess we would try for an initial run of 2,500 items and even that will be difficult to sell without the active cooperation of Leica retail outlets. An initial run of just 1,000 might make more sense. I know that 20,000+ M8's have been sold but how many do anything other than buy things from Leica dealers. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted January 9, 2008 Share #27 Posted January 9, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) If I am going to have anything to do with the design of the charger it will NOT have a wall wart or an intermediary power supply. The whole idea of this is KISS (keep it simple stupid). It may well be that an existing charger manufacturer can modify the battery recess moulding and use the existing electronics. I don't see the M8 battery as having a dramatically different charging regime to similarly sized/voltage/capacity lithium batteries from other digital devices. The tiny charger for my Ricoh GX100 has a higher voltage and current rating than the Leica M8 one but is one quarter or less the size and with no ventilation slots. If only a minority want 12v or solar then it is not going to get these, as they add cost and complexity. Now guys it is time to p**s or get off the pot. What would you pay for a small single battery charger, given that it is a very small production run. I would guess we would try for an initial run of 2,500 items and even that will be difficult to sell without the active cooperation of Leica retail outlets. An initial run of just 1,000 might make more sense. I know that 20,000+ M8's have been sold but how many do anything other than buy things from Leica dealers. Wilson Hi' Wilson, I would have no problem with US$150 - $200. Above that, it has to have magic bells and whistles too. If the Laidlaw-Isaacs charger is as small and handy as the Nikon device shown in my earlier post I'm a dead-sure buyer. If it is interestingly designed and well executed (assured, if Tim's involved) then that will be a bonus. You're right - the KISS principle overrides everything (except pocketability). I am looking forward to developments .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
papimuzo Posted January 9, 2008 Share #28 Posted January 9, 2008 Me too am interested by this development! With single battery, mains only, along with the flying mains lead with figure 8 socket on the charger, you can count me for two units. I would have no problem with US$150 - $200 each. I hope this will follows the Thumbs Up and coder tools. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Olof Posted January 9, 2008 Share #29 Posted January 9, 2008 Hi' Wilson, EU and US approval may indeed kill this project No problem, we could order it for example in Honkong and import it for private use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 9, 2008 Share #30 Posted January 9, 2008 I think one must reach beyond the regulars on this board, to sell this, and there will be difficulty moving 1000-2500 single battery chargers. To all appearances, these are the Nikon/Canon/Olympus/Ricoh/etc charger with the contacts and battery molding changed to accept the M8's battery. The "etc" model retails for under $50 at vast numbers of stores on the planet, so it will be tough to convince people to pay $150-200 for it. Unless, of course, it comes with a big red dot... scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted January 9, 2008 Share #31 Posted January 9, 2008 I would check out the Nikon D200 charger as well. I don't have mine in front of me but I believe its even more compact than the one pictured. Well, the Leica charger is bulky but to my mind not $150-200 bulky! It works and a spare one can be had for $99 from Popflash. So I would say that beyond a few members here where $ not an issue that $100 would be the absolute ceiling to sell a number of these things. Even that would give me hesitation (all this spare crap needed for this camera has added up!). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricC Posted January 10, 2008 Share #32 Posted January 10, 2008 Hi Wilson, Count me in if they're under £100 each. Regards Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share #33 Posted January 10, 2008 My thoughts on pricing are a max of $100. If we can't do it at that, I think it is a non-starter. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricC Posted January 10, 2008 Share #34 Posted January 10, 2008 My thoughts on pricing are a max of $100. If we can't do it at that, I think it is a non-starter. Wilson Excellent, if you can manage to sell them at that point, then put me down for a couple. :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotogo Posted January 10, 2008 Share #35 Posted January 10, 2008 Hi' Wilson, I would have no problem with US$150 - $200. Above that, it has to have magic bells and whistles too. If the Laidlaw-Isaacs charger is as small and handy as the Nikon device shown in my earlier post I'm a dead-sure buyer. If it is interestingly designed and well executed (assured, if Tim's involved) then that will be a bonus. You're right - the KISS principle overrides everything (except pocketability). I am looking forward to developments .... One of the enjoyable aspects of such a project is the pretty stuff. In this case, we want to investigate the minimum volume that might be occupied by a new M8 battery charger. This phase is straightforward enough, but filled with assumptions. Still, it's an enjoyable task to warm up the CPU and create something from which we can all base our comments. Stated production volumes are relatively low, so a minimum of proprietary parts will help keep the development costs down. Looks like proprietary parts so far: 1 Top and Bottom Case Halves, 2 Slide Lock, 3 Sticker to display the electrical safety standards met such as CE, CSA, UL, 4 the PCB It seems a certainty we need for some basic safety locks, and the electrical connections. I have done that in two steps here. Of course, the untested assumption is that we can fit the guts in and around the unusual shape of the battery. A slightly thicker case might result. But here at least is a start on a single battery charger, based on the M8 battery shape. Bring on the comments please! Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricC Posted January 10, 2008 Share #36 Posted January 10, 2008 Bring on the comments please! Tim That looks perfect Tim, maybe a couple of status LED's on the upper surface? Regards Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share #37 Posted January 10, 2008 Tim, Thanks for posting CAD images. Just thinking aloud - is there any requirement, if the electronics don't need the space, to fully enclose the battery. In other words, the battery top face could stand proud of the charger top surface by about half the battery thickness. The figure 8 connector could then be moved to be horizontally aligned on the back face of the charger. This would make for a slightly smaller package, which is the raison d'être of the new charger. I agree with Eric - maybe 3 LED's on the top face. Yellow = power connected: Red = charging: Green = charged. I would have a go but my CAD expert (my son) has gone back to complete the last year of his engineering degree. I would not sully your design with my poor efforts. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotogo Posted January 10, 2008 Share #38 Posted January 10, 2008 Tim, Thanks for posting CAD images. Just thinking aloud - is there any requirement, if the electronics don't need the space, to fully enclose the battery. In other words, the battery top face could stand proud of the charger top surface by about half the battery thickness. The figure 8 connector could then be moved to be horizontally aligned on the back face of the charger. This would make for a slightly smaller package, which is the raison d'être of the new charger. I agree with Eric - maybe 3 LED's on the top face. Yellow = power connected: Red = charging: Green = charged. I would have a go but my CAD expert (my son) has gone back to complete the last year of his engineering degree. I would not sully your design with my poor efforts. Wilson Slimming the package by placing the battery in a protruding configuration is a fine idea indeed. I will work on that. Key point is that during the use of the charger, the battery should be secured in place. I will figure out a way to manage that. In the mean time, here is your 3rd LED. Keep in mind that we can use multi colored LED's, and reduce the number of actual lamps. Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricC Posted January 10, 2008 Share #39 Posted January 10, 2008 That looks great Tim, and as you say a single three colour LED could be used to save space. Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted January 10, 2008 Share #40 Posted January 10, 2008 Slimming the package by placing the battery in a protruding configuration is a fine idea indeed. I will work on that. Key point is that during the use of the charger, the battery should be secured in place. I will figure out a way to manage that. In the mean time, here is your 3rd LED. Keep in mind that we can use multi colored LED's, and reduce the number of actual lamps. Tim Hi' Tim, As I expected, you're off and running already! You amaze me with your ability to produce these wonderful CADs so quickly and with such flare! I'd buy the version I see already! In every respect your proposal seems to be on exactly the right track, although I like Wilson's idea of allowing the battery to stand proud of the charger to further minimise its dimensions. Can you also try to design it so that all edges are soft to ensure this device is genuinely pocketable (and soft camera bag friendly)? Wilson originally expressed interest in a multiple battery charger and in an earlier post I tentatively suggested the device might incorporate both male and female figure 8 connections, with a direct electrical pass through to each. In this way the individual units could be connected to each other and still reguire only the one flying mains lead and socket. Is this in the realms of affordable possibility? It would certainly encourage me to buy more than one - and if everyone else felt the same then the potential sales are doubled (I know, I'm off into the realms of fantasy now ...). Good luck and keep showing us the developing concept - this is the Thumbs Up and C-Coder all over again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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