M Classic?

[pgh]

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2 hours ago, SrMi said:

When the situation warrants, you can shoot M11s in 36 or 18MP modes. Fuji successfully launched a 100MP camera without IBIS.

You can. Pixel binning is not the same as a native 24mp sensor. At any rate, ithout sales data, just based on my colleagues assessments that Fuji’s follow up that did have IBIS was more successful and widely adopted. Most people I knew stuck with 50 until the 100 had IBIS, unless they typically worked studio. This is just dumb anecdotal evidence but it made perfect sense to me. Wasn’t Fuji’s original 100mp cam even marketed more as a studio camera? An M11 sure isn’t one. I mean it can be but that’s not why you’d buy it. 

But this comes down to preference and how you use your cameras. I’ve shot the M11, and it doesn’t work for me. My M10M’s really only work because the higher ISO is so good that a min 2x/f shutter is not an issue. Not so much the case on the M11 or even M10R. 

On the other hand, I can comfortably handhold my x2d and still get the best quality in diminished lighting scenarios. 

The M10D isn’t perfect but as far as I see it’s the closest thing to what OP is asking for and has the best sensor for the intended use in my dumb opinion.

Edited May 10 by pgh

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[SrMi]

38 minutes ago, pgh said:

You can. Pixel binning is not the same as a native 24mp sensor.

It is not pixel binning. What is the difference between a resized 60MP to 24 or 18 MP and a native 24MP sensor?

41 minutes ago, pgh said:

Wasn’t Fuji’s original 100mp cam even marketed more as a studio camera? An M11 sure isn’t one. I mean it can be but that’s not why you’d buy it. 

The new GFX100RF (100MP, no IBIS) is a camera that is mainly used handheld.

 

[AZach]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

the Lens, maybe we can cut that! Smaller and lighter.

A smaller and lighter lens - labelled classic. Adjust manual ISO, shutter and aperture as you like. Switch off screen. M Classic or what? 

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[username]

32 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It is not pixel binning.

Right, it's rather in-camera downsampling.

 

Quote

What is the difference between a resized 60MP to 24 or 18 MP and a native 24MP sensor?

The difference is camera shake is more of an issue when shooting on a 60MP sensor compared to a 24MP one.

[SrMi]

21 minutes ago, username said:

Right, it's rather in-camera downsampling.

 

The difference is camera shake is more of an issue when shooting on a 60MP sensor compared to a 24MP one.

There should be no difference when 60MP is resized to 24MP.

[username]

19 minutes ago, SrMi said:

There should be no difference when 60MP is resized to 24MP.

Regarding how the files look: no, not that much - 
compared to if you'd do it later, on your computer. The difference would be in what algorythm you'd use to downsample, as they produce slightly different results.

Regarding the camera shake / sharpness: very much.
Ming Thein explains it well here I think - Clearing up the myth of higher resolution, shot discipline and image quality once and for all

 

The simple reason why higher resolution cameras are less forgiving is that for a given angle of view, the camera with the high resolution will put the greater number of pixels per degree of field of view on the subject. This means, that less angular movement is needed before it becomes visible as blur on the image – i.e. you need to be more static than with a lower resolution camera to avoid seeing the effects of motion blur at the pixel level.

Edited May 10 by username

[pgh]

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21 minutes ago, SrMi said:

There should be no difference when 60MP is resized to 24MP.

In my experience, there is. I don’t really care so much about why, I just know that I noticed a difference and that (among other reasons) turned me off to it. 

The new Fuji has a 28mm lens equivalent, if it’s the one I believe you’re referring to. That buys it a little bit of space for easier handholding, but I wonder how it will do. At any rate, as a mostly 50mm, sometimes 35mm user I wouldn’t buy it anyways, or anything with resolution that high without IBIS. 

As I said, it depends on how one uses the camera, my time with the M11 showed me that the extra resolution was not worth the headache for me. For anyone who finds they get consistently good results, well then that’s the tool for them. For me it’s not worth the trade off of needing to use higher ISOs to achieve fast enough shutter speeds that need to be at least 2x and more safely 3x the focal length. I’d rather take the lower resolution, be able shoot a lower ISO and a lower shutter speed and still get a critically sharp image out the gate. 

Edited May 10 by pgh

[jaapv]

I always thought the M11 one step too far. Too many features, too many MPs, too far removed from the M Gestalt. Obviously many customers love it as it sells well, but I do think that there is a market for a digital M4. 

[IkarusJohn]

Let’s not stray back onto motion blur, variable MP, in camera cropping, live sensor metering and what you can turn off and on with an M11, or needing to use Fotos to take a picture with an M10-D.  Those topics have been done to death.

For me (and obviously there are others who agree - I can’t imagine the Monochrom and D versions would have continued after the M9 and M60, respectively), the appeal of Leica M cameras is that they challenge what is essential.  Presumably, what is for me a dead end in the M11 will be carried over into a more complex (but hopefully more stable) M12.  And people will buy it.

But, here’s the thing.  Built in exposure meters have been in cameras since 1957 (the ill-appreciated M5, launched in 1971); the first SLR in 35mm format was in 1931, yet Leica still persists with the rangefinder.  I don’t think it is arrogance on Leica’s part.  They still make the M-A and MP.

I do agree that the M10-D is the closest to what I’m proposing.  The M11-D, not so much.  This is about perfecting what has worked well.  I love my M9 based Monochrom (I might consider a secondhand M10-M when my Monochrom dies, if I can find one) and the M60 was close to what I’m taking about.  The latter in an M10 body, with a new sensor and (please) not a special edition.

Leica makes nothing on  secondhand sales …

[Al Brown]

It is 2025 and I am still scratching my head why there are both M6 and MP offered simultaneously... what on earth is the sensible* differentiation between them?

*(Please do not list the differences in specs between them, I know them all...)

[evikne]

2 hours ago, AZach said:

Switch off screen. M Classic or what?

Not for me, at least.

[username]

9 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

what on earth is the sensible* differentiation between them?
 

 

..target audience, surely?

 

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[Biotar]

vor einer Stunde schrieb IkarusJohn:

But, here’s the thing.  Built in exposure meters have been in cameras since 1957 (the ill-appreciated M5, launched in 1971); the first SLR in 35mm format was in 1931, yet Leica still persists with the rangefinder.  I don’t think it is arrogance on Leica’s part.  They still make the M-A and MP.

The last classic M that could also be described as a pure tool was the M5 (and the CL). All subsequent Ms, which don't display exposure time in the viewfinder and are impossible to operate in manual mode without anti-aging glasses and in the dark without a flashlight, remain toys, regardless of megapixels, ISO, and dynamic range. 

With the M, Leica should return to the fundamentals of photography – not fashion.

[Le Chef]

2 minutes ago, Biotar said:

With the M, Leica should return to the fundamentals of photography – not fashion.

That would be the M6 surely?

[Biotar]

Does it display the exposure time in the viewfinder? - That would surprise me.

The stupid symbols don't tell you that your time is longer than 1/60

Edited May 10 by Biotar

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, username said:

Regarding how the files look: no, not that much - 
compared to if you'd do it later, on your computer. The difference would be in what algorythm you'd use to downsample, as they produce slightly different results.

Regarding the camera shake / sharpness: very much.
Ming Thein explains it well here I think - Clearing up the myth of higher resolution, shot discipline and image quality once and for all

 

The simple reason why higher resolution cameras are less forgiving is that for a given angle of view, the camera with the high resolution will put the greater number of pixels per degree of field of view on the subject. This means, that less angular movement is needed before it becomes visible as blur on the image – i.e. you need to be more static than with a lower resolution camera to avoid seeing the effects of motion blur at the pixel level.

Ming does not investigate the results obtained after downsizing a high-resolution image. Downsizing an image should have the same effect as shooting with a lower-resolution sensor, both for camera shake and noise per pixel.

[Kwesi]

On 5/9/2025 at 6:19 PM, IkarusJohn said:

With all the talk of an MEVF, IBIS and the like, potentially making the already complex M11 even more feature filled, what chance is there of Leica making a digital M in the same paradigm as a digital MP or M6?  A purist digital M, for those who like to add a little dismissive connotation.

Im afraid its been a slippery, feature laden slope since the M6 so chances are very slim that Leica will ever produce the purist digital M you describe.

From a functional standpoint though, I use my M11 the same way that I used M7 and I think that's what's special about the M. Here's to hoping they don't mock that up in future M's

[IkarusJohn]

13 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Im afraid its been a slippery, feature laden slope since the M6 so chances are very slim that Leica will ever produce the purist digital M you describe.

From a functional standpoint though, I use my M11 the same way that I used M7 and I think that's what's special about the M. Here's to hoping they don't mock that up in future M's

The MP, M-A, M-E, M262, M60, M6 re-release and Monochrom would suggest otherwise.

Edited May 10 by IkarusJohn

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[Kwesi]

2 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

The MP, M-A, M60, M6 re-release and Monochrom would suggest otherwise.

Leica will always look back as it forges forward. But, it has to forge forward to stay viable in a world dominated by technological innovations in all industries.

What makes Leica M so special is that it is very attached to its roots.

[steve edmunds]

i would try very hard to buy a modern version of my M262 but it does not exist so i am stuck with maybe adding another M262 as insurance plus another battery it would have to keep me going for a few years.

i am obviously a small minority but i am a lost M customer because no models after the M262 suit me.