M Classic?

[SrMi]

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22 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

This happens all the time if one is photographing say a stage show, or is photographing from a dark area to a light one at night. I've wished Leica showed the shutter speed in the M finder since I started with an M6 in 1993. Or a way of illuminating the shutter speeds on the top dial. I would also like a shutter speed dial that doesn't have A, and doesn't make round trips (i.e. has a stop at 1/4000). 

With M11, you can quickly turn on the LCD to see the shutter speed.

[Biotar]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99:

Sorry, but this is the silliest thing I've read in a while. The restriction is always the photographer, not the camera. You may need/want a different camera for something specific you want to achieve, which is fine and valid. This is not a restriction, but rather a choice. Personally, I choose the M because it doesn't restrict me in the way an SL would. For a few specific scenarios I would choose my D850. See how that works?

I currently use more than 20 analog and digital systems - the M is the only one that restricts me in my manual way of working because it doesn't display the times. The Zeiss Ikon ZM and the Bessa, which make it easy, show that it is possible with RF. They also don't constantly claim to be the best tool for photographers. 😉

[Biotar]

Why is manual exposure metering absurd and an exposure time in the viewfinder not classic enough?

These are hopefully not just basics for me.

[lct]

4 minutes ago, Biotar said:

[...] the M is the only one that restricts me in my manual way of working because it doesn't display the times [...]

It does it in three ways: on the shutter speed dial, on the status screen, and in the EVF.

[username]

10 minutes ago, Biotar said:

the M is the only one that restricts me

Then sell it, it obviously isn't for you 💁‍♂️

[Biotar]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb lct:

It does it in three ways: on the shutter speed dial, on the status screen, and in the EVF.

The wheel is not illuminated in the dark and I can't see it in the light without glasses - just like the LCD.

[username]

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4 minutes ago, Biotar said:

Why is manual exposure metering absurd and an exposure time in the viewfinder not classic enough?

These are hopefully not just basics for me.

It doesn't get more intuitive and basic than with the simple arrows ("stupid symbols", as you call them), which have worked perfectly for generations of photographers.

[lct]

1 minute ago, Biotar said:

The wheel is not illuminated in the dark and I can't see it in the light without glasses - just like the LCD.

Why not with the EVF? But there is a fourth way also, just push the center button. Four ways are not enough for you? The M11 is not made for you then.

[Biotar]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb username:

It doesn't get more intuitive and basic than with the simple arrows ("stupid symbols", as you call them), which have worked perfectly for generations of photographers.

It's a good thing that generations of photographers didn't have to rely on the M.
It was solved intuitively back in 2004 with the first digital RF (see video of Epson R-D1 Viewfinder).

 

Edited May 11 by Biotar

[Biotar]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb username:

Then sell it, it obviously isn't for you 💁‍♂️

... I'm not going to do that because it's as beautiful as a mechanical wristwatch and also takes the odd good picture 😉

[Biotar]

Display of the set exposure time on the M5 - so it also worked before with Leica

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[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

This happens all the time if one is photographing say a stage show, or is photographing from a dark area to a light one at night. I've wished Leica showed the shutter speed in the M finder since I started with an M6 in 1993. Or a way of illuminating the shutter speeds on the top dial. I would also like a shutter speed dial that doesn't have A, and doesn't make round trips (i.e. has a stop at 1/4000). 

I wouldn’t call that “dark”, I’d call that low light.  We photograph light, right?

As to knowing the shutter speed, I guess that depends on the version of the M and how you use it.  Having had digital versions of the M since the M9 in 2009, the shutter speed is always illuminated in the OVF if you’re shooting in aperture priority.  If you’re in a dim environment, then use the A setting on the shutter dial.  For myself, whether shooting in aperture priority or in manual exposure, I need to know that the ISO setting is appropriate for the environment (I’ve set that in advance) and I always want to know the aperture for a given exposure.  Similarly, if I don’t trust the meter, I set EV compensation - it’s a case of understanding how your meter works.

I don’t see the problem.  Even in dim light, I’m never fretting about the shutter speed - it is the least important exposure factor for me, provided it is within the bounds of usability.  

In manual mode, it can become an issue if I’m randomly adjusting aperture and shutter speed to get the arrows and dots where I want them.  The benefit of manual mode is I don’t need to be adjusting the EV setting for each shot - I can under or over expose by adjusting either aperture or shutter.  But, on all my cameras, I know where the settings are.  I start with the focus tab at infinity every time, and aperture set wide open - I’m then rotating each in the same direction for each shot.

For shutter speed, the simplest solution is to put the dial in A if I can’t see what the setting is (to be honest, that’s rarely happened - I would never get out my phone and turn on the lamp to see what the settings are).  On each of my M cameras (apart from the M-A) the click of the shutter dial is hard, coming from the A setting.  I guess if shutter speed is such an issue, then set it at a workable speed for the scenes you’re likely to encounter, and adjust the aperture - if you’re “in the dark”, exposure isn’t going to change that much.

Despite Leica’s endeavours with the M11, the M digital cameras aren’t perfect for every situation and use.  I know the M-A would still work in most situations, but you’d have to fall back on assessing exposure by eye and knowing the feel of your camera without looking - that’s what we all did before in camera meters became predominant in the 1970s.

 

[marchyman]

2 hours ago, lct said:

It does it in three ways: on the shutter speed dial, on the status screen, and in the EVF.

True, but if I understand the complaint correctly all of those require you to remove your eye from the viewfinder.  I believe the want is to be able to manually adjust shutter speed without removing your eye from the viewfinder and know the value.

This is a non issue for me as I'm more likely to use Aperture priority and then use exposure compensation to adjust the speed.  

[lct]

8 minutes ago, marchyman said:

I believe the want is to be able to manually adjust shutter speed without removing your eye from the viewfinder and know the value.

Easily done with the EVF. With the OVF, the only Leica M offering this feature was the M5 IIRC and the exposure process was more complex than with the usual arrows. Excerpt of the M5's instuctions manual below.

LeicaM5_manual_p10_rocred.pdf

[costa43]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Easily done with the EVF. With the OVF, the only Leica M offering this feature was the M5 IIRC and the exposure process was more complex than with the usual arrows. Excerpt of the M5's instuctions manual below.

LeicaM5_manual_p10_rocred.pdf 219.97 kB · 1 download

I find the exposure process with the M5 a joy. It’s the best M in the universe in this regard for me. You can not only see the shutter speed but judging by the line you can see how far over or under exposed you are too. It’s failing is in very low light, hard to see. 

[Biotar]

Yes - what's against simply displaying the set time instead of the center dot in the RF?

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Biotar said:

The wheel is not illuminated in the dark and I can't see it in the light without glasses - just like the LCD.

Count the clicks...

[evikne]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Count the clicks...

A small embossing on the A on the shutter speed dial, for example, might have helped a little in low light. But I've never felt the need for this myself.

Edited May 11 by evikne

[lct]

40 minutes ago, Biotar said:

what's against simply displaying the set time instead of the center dot in the RF?

Distraction? When i want to bother with shutter speeds i have plenty of ways for doing it without cluttering the OVF with unwanted data. Matter of personal preference i guess but i would not vote for an OVF a-la-M5 personally. YMMV.

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[Carlos cruz]

I am with Biotar on this issue, M6 and consecutive have made it less intuitive tool. In the dark environments you either use A mode, and have to fiddle with correction button combo until you get properly exposed  pic or count clicks in shutter speed dial from A (and it’s a bit more clicks since the shutter were 1 sec to 1/1000) it definitely breaks the spell for me. In most situations when decided to go with aperture priority mode the moment I half press the button and see proposed shutter speed I know I’ll end up with over exposed pic. I know I can set exposure beforehand, use visoflex, sell leica, paint 1/30 with  glow in the dark paint, but I believe there’s space and technical means to improve ux so both parties m6 traditionalists and m5 progressives (should be the other way round tbh) can shoot in their preferred way.