Is this haze in a summicron rigid?

[patootie]

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Recently bought a summicron rigid v2 from a private sale. I noticed there's some haze like stuff going on on the inside of the lens. This would be my first vintage lens so I'm not good at identifying what it is. I think it's haze but would be interested in what other people think. 

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[jaapv]

Yes that is haze. It needs its windows washed. Send it in to DAG for a CLA I hope that you factored the cost in when buying the lens. 

[patootie]

No I did not.  It was advertised as without haze. But luckily I used paypal buyer protection so I will probably have to negotiate with the seller on this. I'm bummed

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, patootie said:

 It was advertised as without haze.

Actually, this is a severe case of haze. I’d return it.

[kiwidad]

It does appear to be haze and this is one of the only reasons to shop on the big auction site.  Buyer always wins in these cases even when seller claims no returns.

It seems like it getting hard to get nice clean vintage lenses these days.

[TomB_tx]

2 hours ago, kiwidad said:

It seems like it getting hard to get nice clean vintage lenses these days.

That's the main reason i bought the LLL 50 f2 Rigid - a very close duplicate of the '60s Leitz v2 Summicron, but new manufacture & coatings. plus focus to .7m and half-stops. I already had 2 original "Rigids" and I find the LLL compares favorably.

[UliWer]

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3 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

That's the main reason i bought the LLL 50 f2 Rigid -

Your reason, though not a convincing one. A rigid Summicron is 60 or more years old and of course the glass will pay it’s price to time. Though I am sure you’ll find many more haze free rigid Summicrons than any „LLL“ lens was ever produced. The same is true for a 1:1.8/50mm Canon Lens, or many comparable other lenses from the late fifties or early sixties. The originals are present and will stay. No sufficient reason to go for dull „modern“ imitates.  

[lct]

No problem as buyer on e**y here. I mostly buy to pro sellers at rare exceptions, among which a superb Summicron 50/2 DR from 1957 with no haze at all. Otherwise the e**y warranty works well, nothing to worry about.

Edit: I would return the OP's lens too.

Edited May 3 by lct

[pgk]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

A rigid Summicron is 60 or more years old and of course the glass will pay it’s price to time.

I have far older lenses, some of which have faults such as balsam separation, scratches, air bubbles and more, but none have as severe 'haze' as the one shown in the OP. I'm intrigued because haze seems to be something which happens more on mid 20th century lenses rather than earlier. Glass types? Lubricants? Atmospheric pollution at some point? Humidity, central heating, whatver. There must be a fairly obvious reason.

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, patootie said:

No I did not.  It was advertised as without haze. But luckily I used paypal buyer protection so I will probably have to negotiate with the seller on this. I'm bummed

In my judgement, though, it will clean up nicely. I think you should settle for a part-refund. 

[patootie]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

In my judgement, though, it will clean up nicely. I think you should settle for a part-refund. 

I don't have experience handling vintage lenses but I read that some hazing may not come off with a CLA. Why risk it? And I don't want to deal with waiting for the lens to be CLAed. I'm going to return it. LLL Rigid is looking pretty appealing to me right now. Unfortunately I've been burned once on their QA

[TomB_tx]

56 minutes ago, patootie said:

LLL Rigid is looking pretty appealing to me right now. Unfortunately I've been burned once on their QA

It can happen - my 35 8-element was perfect, so I pre-ordered the Rigid. Focus was slightly off when I got it, so sent to DAG and he calibrated it. Been using it since and it seems great. Still comparing it to my 2 original Rigid and like it better so far.

Another forum member also got one that back-focused, and DAG told him his copy had too much internal "glue" and he couldn't calibrate it. I believe Pop Flash replaced it for him.

Edited May 3 by TomB_tx

[patootie]

1 hour ago, TomB_tx said:

It can happen - my 35 8-element was perfect, so I pre-ordered the Rigid. Focus was slightly off when I got it, so sent to DAG and he calibrated it. Been using it since and it seems great. Still comparing it to my 2 original Rigid and like it better so far.

Another forum member also got one that back-focused, and DAG told him his copy had too much internal "glue" and he couldn't calibrate it. I believe Pop Flash replaced it for him.

Are you saying you prefer your LLL rigid to the original one? Why? I sent my LLL 8E to get it warrantied, why did you sent it to DAG instead of through the warranty program? I haven't gotten a lens CLAed yet but I heard it can take months to get it back. It seems frustrating to buy a new lens only to pay more to get it CLAed immediately after buying, and wait another few months...

[misteracng]

LLL has nice materials for the build, but QC is an issue, my 35 8E was fine, the my 50 rigid had play between the mount and the barrel along with stiction with small focus adjustments it went back. This issue with using glue for construction is also concerning because this will make it very difficult to service. 

[mottykytu]

3 hours ago, patootie said:

Are you saying you prefer your LLL rigid to the original one? Why? I sent my LLL 8E to get it warrantied, why did you sent it to DAG instead of through the warranty program? I haven't gotten a lens CLAed yet but I heard it can take months to get it back. It seems frustrating to buy a new lens only to pay more to get it CLAed immediately after buying, and wait another few months...

To be honest the Leica Rigid is quite TOO OLD now

It is very hard to find a "Like New" copy of it in the market for a FAIR PRICE, The build is still good, but optical is different story, Especially the coating back then is not as good and protective as nowadays coating

Therefore, the LLL Rigid, which bring 95-99% Render of the original Leica Rigid, Great Build, Great Quality, and for 1/2 The Price of the very old Leica Rigid on the Market, I would say it is No Brainer , Even when you have to sent it to do CLA (if you are unlucky).

[Ecar]

3 hours ago, mottykytu said:

To be honest the Leica Rigid is quite TOO OLD now

Too old for what?

3 hours ago, mottykytu said:

It is very hard to find a "Like New" copy of it in the market for a FAIR PRICE, The build is still good, but optical is different story, Especially the coating back then is not as good and protective as nowadays coating

"Like new" for items that were manufactured 70 years ago is a complete fallacy. However, excellent copies of the Rigid, in all its versions, can still be found. True, they aren't off-the-shelf items and some research and patience is required. Coatings are indeed rather fragile on this lens, but they contribute to its rendering: if you want *good* and *protective* modern ones, there are a few shops that can do that for you - but it won't be quite the same lens. Or you can indeed get the LLL replica.
Like all vintage items, going prices for old lenses are driven by demand, rarity and condition. Price "fairness" is in the eye of the beholder: when an item (any item) gets sold, it means that at least one person found its price acceptable. I still see Rigids with flawless or near-flawless coatings changing hands on an ongoing basis, so someone must deem their prices *fair*. If a seller is too greedy, he won't sell anyway.

4 hours ago, mottykytu said:

Therefore, the LLL Rigid, which bring 95-99% Render of the original Leica Rigid, Great Build, Great Quality, and for 1/2 The Price of the very old Leica Rigid on the Market, I would say it is No Brainer , Even when you have to sent it to do CLA (if you are unlucky).

I can't comment on the IQ of this lens as I don't own it (my only LLL lens is the Elcan replica), but I doubt that reportedly extensive use of glue in their products is an indication of *great build* or *great quality*. All I can do is feel sorry for those brainless people who spend twice the price on the *very old* original - or perhaps they are just being smart and considering the future resale value...

[farnz]

6 hours ago, mottykytu said:

To be honest the Leica Rigid is quite TOO OLD now

It sounds like the Leica Rigid is not the right lens for you then.

6 hours ago, mottykytu said:

The build is still good, but optical is different story, Especially the coating back then is not as good and protective as nowadays coating

The 50/2 Rigid Summicron's coatings have already lasted for 70 years so far.  I don't understand what makes you think that "nowadays" coatings from a startup manufacturer will last 70+ years or 50 or 20 even years.  I hope they'll last a long time but there's no way to tell if they'll last 70 years until 2095.

It is better to have an older lens with good glass and softer coatings (that can be renewed) than a new lens with less-good* glass and harder coatings.  Replacing poor glass elements is much harder than renewing scratched coatings.  *I'm not dissing LLL glass, this is a maxim that applies equally to all lenses.

Pete.

[TomB_tx]

2 hours ago, Ecar said:

- or perhaps they are just being smart and considering the future resale value...

What is "resale"? I've never sold a camera or lens, so...

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Look here: Leica M

[costa43]

7 hours ago, mottykytu said:

To be honest the Leica Rigid is quite TOO OLD now

It is very hard to find a "Like New" copy of it in the market for a FAIR PRICE, The build is still good, but optical is different story, Especially the coating back then is not as good and protective as nowadays coating

Therefore, the LLL Rigid, which bring 95-99% Render of the original Leica Rigid, Great Build, Great Quality, and for 1/2 The Price of the very old Leica Rigid on the Market, I would say it is No Brainer , Even when you have to sent it to do CLA (if you are unlucky).

Its age is its strength for many of us. The rigid is a relatively inexpensive lens in Leica Land so I find the LLL version a little less appealing than some of their other offerings. Each to their own. 

Edited May 4 by costa43

[Ecar]

13 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

What is "resale"? I've never sold a camera or lens, so...

I get your tongue-in-cheek point, but you are likely an exception. I have never looked at my photo gear as an investment myself and have sold very few lenses over the years. Cameras are a different story, as I tend to view them as an appendix to the lenses and 'upgrade' them as required (provided they come with a rangefinder, of course...) since going all-digital several years ago.
However, the 'reserve value' attached to their gear is a key factor for many (most?) Leica users, if only because life circumstances may change.
Interesting subject, but we are drifting OT...