Barnack film leader question

[8ZLGHDN]

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Hello forum. A lifelong film user in both 35mm and 120 with a variety of cameras, I am expecting delivery of my first Barnack next week. A IIIf with Elmar 50/3.5 and 5cm finder kit. Should be a blast, I hope.

On the topic of loading film, I understand the cutting of the film leader is a requirement for properly loading a Barnack.

Or is it...? Other sources seem to suggest using a (paper) guide to protect the shutter also works, allowing film to be loaded that is not trimmed.

I am a hopeless tinkerer and thinker, and wonder if anyone has ever considered/tried to cut a "proper" leader, and tape it to a regular film, thus allowing for the proper loading, and have a few extra frames on the roll to work with. Now, the extra frames is not a consideration when it comes to cost savings, I know. But, if my brain experiment could work, it would be trivial to prepare a few rolls of 35mm in advance with a donor-film-leader, as opposed to cutting rolls of film in advance. Would it be a better method? Meh. Dunno. Just another way of looking at solving a problem.

I'd appreciate your thoughts. Of course... why not try myself once I get the camera? Obvious - if someone out there did try this and ruined his/her shutter, I'd like to hear about it before I make the same mistake.

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[jaapv]

https://www.lomography.com/magazine/258701-snip-it-good-a-diy-film-leader-trimmer

https://www.amazon.com/eTone-Leader-Trimming-Cutting-Template/dp/B0DH1MJ9MThttps://www.instructables.com/Film-Trimmer-for-Leica-and-Russian-clones/

 

And many more....

[8ZLGHDN]

Mmm, yes, I appreciate the input. But that’s not really answering my question, is it?

😉

[jaapv]

Sticking pieces of film together to load in a camera is inviting disaster. And why? To avoid a ten-second job?

[earleygallery]

Your idea might work but seems a lot of bother compared to just trimming the leader. Also avoids the risk of the stuck part becoming unstuck and or getting fouled up inside and damaging something or ruining the photos.

[8ZLGHDN]

You’re both right. Agreed.

[TomB_tx]

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Trimming the leader correctly (the way all 35mm films were before around 1960) is so easy with a bit of practice I see no reason to risk the camera with "work-arounds." The problem is that without film in it the pressure plate is pushed into contact with the outer film rails that the film must fit between to feed properly. When film has a long leader (as designed) the top of the film goes to the upper rail around the end of the pressure plate and slides under the plate within the channel between the rails as the film is advanced. The lower edge of the pressure plate is chamfered so the thin part of the long leader and push its way under it as it is loaded - but top can buckle and fold if tried to force under the tight-fitting top rain and pressure plate.

[dg4mgr]

With the now standard film leader the film might get stuck at the sprocket wheel. To trim correctly, you do not need a special tool. Just cut off 13 more sprocket holes and it will do. 

[jankap]

Another problem you should notice is, that modern film cassettes are shorter. Somewhere in the forum there is a solution proposed with a washer.

Edited May 2 by jankap

[Doug A]

35 minutes ago, jankap said:

Another problem you should notice is, that modern film cassettes are shorter. Somewhere in the forum there is a solution proposed with a washer.

The OP is buying a IIIf which has a tab on the bottom plate that pushes the film itself up into position. No issues with the shorter modern cassettes. 

Edited May 2 by Doug A

[TomB_tx]

21 minutes ago, jankap said:

Another problem you should notice is, that modern film cassettes are shorter. Somewhere in the forum there is a solution proposed with a washer.

As Doug A reported while I was taking a snapshot:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Most IIIf (& IIIg) should have this unless upgraded from an earlier model. I have one IIIf (Red Dial) that had been upgraded and does not have the guide, or the machined slot in the body where it fits. Also, if you use a Leicavit winder it does not have the guide.

[250swb]

2 hours ago, 8ZLGHDN said:

Hello forum. A lifelong film user in both 35mm and 120 with a variety of cameras, I am expecting delivery of my first Barnack next week. A IIIf with Elmar 50/3.5 and 5cm finder kit. Should be a blast, I hope.

On the topic of loading film, I understand the cutting of the film leader is a requirement for properly loading a Barnack.

Or is it...? Other sources seem to suggest using a (paper) guide to protect the shutter also works, allowing film to be loaded that is not trimmed.

I am a hopeless tinkerer and thinker, and wonder if anyone has ever considered/tried to cut a "proper" leader, and tape it to a regular film, thus allowing for the proper loading, and have a few extra frames on the roll to work with. Now, the extra frames is not a consideration when it comes to cost savings, I know. But, if my brain experiment could work, it would be trivial to prepare a few rolls of 35mm in advance with a donor-film-leader, as opposed to cutting rolls of film in advance. Would it be a better method? Meh. Dunno. Just another way of looking at solving a problem.

I'd appreciate your thoughts. Of course... why not try myself once I get the camera? Obvious - if someone out there did try this and ruined his/her shutter, I'd like to hear about it before I make the same mistake.

There are people who say they have no access to a pair of scissors, and they say you can load a film using a credit card to force the film flat over the gear teeth, these are life's masochists. Buy a pair of scissors and cut your film leaders before leaving the house, it doesn't mean you can't use the film in other film cameras, but it does mean you don't spend an age loading your Barnack.

[8ZLGHDN]

Dear people - I fully understand the decennia old wisdom of cutting the leader if that is the proper way to load a Barnack.

And I would loath to tell anyone otherwise.

My post was not to argue against the logic of the cut leader, but to - ahum, smartly, ahum - come up with a leader one can stick to a normal film. Dumb idea? Could very well be. However, what is more fun - arguing against a dumb idea, or never think of something new?

[TomB_tx]

Well, a stick-on leader does sound innovative, but there are potential problems. It's the sprockets that feed the film through the body, so the added leader would have to overlap enough to be sure its sprocket holes line up exactly with the film holes. As the film leaves the flat rails it bends sharply to go over the sprockets and then immediately bends back the other way to wind on the take-up spool. that would tend to shear the Stickum between the new leader and the film, and the double thickness where they are overlapped would likely be much stiffer than the single layer of film, so it might not wind on the spool as neatly and tightly. You might not even get as many exposures to wind on the spool without binding as with just trimming the leader. After the double bend of the sprocket/spool interface as the film is rewound back again the leader might well come loose and get fouled in the shutter.

Innovative idea, but I wouldn't risk mt Leica with it.

[nitroplait]

10 hours ago, 8ZLGHDN said:

Dumb idea? Could very well be. However, what is more fun - arguing against a dumb idea, or never think of something new?

It is not a dumb idea, nor is it new - at least I tried when we had film supply shortages as a consequence of Covid, hoping to get an extra frame or two on the roll - and I am sure many before me have considered solutions either to avoid the film waste of the long leader or the trouble of cutting modern film for every reload: You are already aware of the infamous cardboard/credit card "trick".

The couple of ideas I played with always ended with concerns of potential damage the film connection points could cause - and the fact that the were not really making things any easier (than just cutting the leader and move along).

Film loading of the Barnack is the user process where the users most commonly and easily damage their cameras.
It is more common than dropping it or burning holes in the shutter curtains from sun exposure - at least according to a repair tech I once asked (he always included a home fabricated plastic template for cutting the film when he returned a repaired Barnack).

But don't let it hold you back - it is your camera and your money, and if you feel confident, then why not?

The attempt to make loading faster by not having to cut the leader is kind of silly since using a Barnack is already slow in the 2nd degree. If one needs to operate faster, one needs another camera.
However, I wouldn't mind a reliable solution to save film resources. So if you are successful, please share.

Edited May 3 by nitroplait

[LocalHero1953]

The most common error with films and Barnacks when preparing bulk loaded films is cutting the leader on the wrong edge of the film, necessitating a re-cut and losing perhaps four frames in the process.

That is based on a statistical sample of one - myself.

[Matlock]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The most common error with films and Barnacks when preparing bulk loaded films is cutting the leader on the wrong edge of the film, necessitating a re-cut and losing perhaps four frames in the process.

That is based on a statistical sample of one - myself.

Yes, done it and got the tee-shirt. Seriously though the biggest mistake is, if you do not have a template, cutting through the sprocket holes rather than between them.

[spydrxx]

Don't think it is a good idea, but what the Hell, it is your camera and film. If you want to experiment, do it and learn from your mistakes.

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[qqphot]

21 hours ago, 8ZLGHDN said:

Dear people - I fully understand the decennia old wisdom of cutting the leader if that is the proper way to load a Barnack.

And I would loath to tell anyone otherwise.

My post was not to argue against the logic of the cut leader, but to - ahum, smartly, ahum - come up with a leader one can stick to a normal film. Dumb idea? Could very well be. However, what is more fun - arguing against a dumb idea, or never think of something new?

The purpose of cutting the leader is to allow the film to push between the film gate and the spring-loaded backing plate at an angle until the upper and lower  sprocket teeth both engage.  Attaching a properly-shaped leader to the end of another roll would achieve that, but you'd need to be sure that an uninterrupted line of unobstructed sprocket holes was maintaned on both edges through the whole splice, because once past the leader the sprocket teeth need to have holes in the film to engage with and it'll be really likely to jam if any are missing or spaced wrong. Also, if it pulls apart or any bits of tape come off, it will be a pain to extricate the pieces since you can't just open the back of the camera.

The other way you mentioned is to set it to "Time" to hold the shutter open so you can stick your finger inside and depress the backing plate while you guide the untrimmed leader up into the correct position, all while pushing the film cassette and take up spool into the body. It's a bit fiddly but possible, and you're more likely to get dust and crud inside or misalign the film, etc.

Edited May 3 by qqphot

[8ZLGHDN]

Well, everyone, thank you so much.

I am impressed by the number of active people on this forum, loyal to the brand, and willing to take time to share thoughts and experiences.

Overall, I think most agree to just cut the film leader - everything else seems to be a waste of time, asking for problems, or both. I’m in that group.

As far as I’m concerned, responses can keep coming in, and I will read them, but can’t possibly say “thank you” to everyone who has something to contribute.

I’ll end with saying that I’ll most likely just cut the leaders ahead of time. Having said that, my amateur-engineering brain can already envision another type of film cutter, the size of a plastic film canister…

Geez, eh?

Supposedly FedEx is going to deliver my camera on Monday. I’m not suggesting I’ll be a life-long, die-hard Leica fan from then on, but I DO know I have not been THIS excited to get another camera, since I was a 12 year old boy and had worked my butt off to earn every penny for a brand new Canon AE-1. And believe me, a LOT of cameras passed through my hands since then.

 

 

 

Edited May 3 by 8ZLGHDN