S4 speculations

[LeicaR10]

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ShaneKing,   Patience....it is coming when it is show time and that will be soon.  Just get your black AMEX card ready...and no, its not going to replace the SL system for those who think the S4 and S system will do so.  The S system is designed for the pros or well heeled photographers who need/want high resolution, highest IQ for MF and associated photographic genres.  Stay tuned.  r/ Mark

Edited August 18 by LeicaR10

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[BernardC]

13 hours ago, shanefking said:

So is the S4 dead or what?

Last we heard from official Leica sources, including the Chairman of the Board, it is in development. The rumour sites will light-up a few weeks prior to release.

11 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

What more can it give than an SL3 or the equivazlent?

It complements the SL system, so the SL isn't competition. That might be one of Leica's most unique propositions, given that Fuji and Hasselblad's medium format products are isolated. You won't need to buy/carry two of everything, and you won't need different workflows for different files.

[Pieter12]

If they wait long enough, it will be obsolete upon release.

[BernardC]

3 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

If they wait long enough, it will be obsolete upon release.

One of the issues with the sensor used by Hasselblad and Fuji is that it isn't very good for video, or for electronic shutter. It's worth the wait if they can get a next-generation sensor from Sony. There wouldn't be much point releasing a new camera with an old sensor that has performance limitations, and being stuck at that level for the next 4 or 5 years.

[ZHNL]

38 minutes ago, BernardC said:

One of the issues with the sensor used by Hasselblad and Fuji is that it isn't very good for video, or for electronic shutter. It's worth the wait if they can get a next-generation sensor from Sony. There wouldn't be much point releasing a new camera with an old sensor that has performance limitations, and being stuck at that level for the next 4 or 5 years.

Do you know if there is such a sensor available? 

[BernardC]

8 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

Do you know if there is such a sensor available? 

Yes and no.

Blackmagic has such a sensor for their URSA Cine 17K, but I have no idea if it's adaptable to a smaller camera. It's probably an energy hog, and therefore runs quite hot.

Sony Semi should be working on a next-gen medium format sensor, but they won't publish anything until it's available.

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Yes and no.

Blackmagic has such a sensor for their URSA Cine 17K, but I have no idea if it's adaptable to a smaller camera. It's probably an energy hog, and therefore runs quite hot.

Sony Semi should be working on a next-gen medium format sensor, but they won't publish anything until it's available.

I believe that Sony's next-gen MF sensor improves on the number of megapixels, not on readout time.

[Einst_Stein]

5 hours ago, BernardC said:

One of the issues with the sensor used by Hasselblad and Fuji is that it isn't very good for video, or for electronic shutter. It's worth the wait if they can get a next-generation sensor from Sony. There wouldn't be much point releasing a new camera with an old sensor that has performance limitations, and being stuck at that level for the next 4 or 5 years.

Why it is an issue? How important is video for such users? I assume video doesn’t need to cover the whole frame., or, doesnot need to cover every still image pixel. 

[Einst_Stein]

10 hours ago, BernardC said:

Last we heard from official Leica sources, including the Chairman of the Board, it is in development. The rumour sites will light-up a few weeks prior to release.

It complements the SL system, so the SL isn't competition. That might be one of Leica's most unique propositions, given that Fuji and Hasselblad's medium format products are isolated. You won't need to buy/carry two of everything, and you won't need different workflows for different files.

I don’t know how many S/SL users share your view that they are complement. Certainly I don’t. . 

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

I don’t know how many S/SL users share your view that they are complement. Certainly I don’t. . 

Here's a different way of looking at it: The S4 will be part of the SL system, just like the SL3, and SL3-S, and the lenses, and the flashes, and other aspects such as L-log and colour response.

What we've seen so far suggests that the adapter to use L-mount lenses on the S4 will be much simpler, fitting inside the mount. This will hopefully make it very expensive, instead of appallingly expensive 😀.

Photographers will also notice that the S4 has the same interface as the SL bodies, so they can be used together without any adaptation period.

12 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

Why it is an issue? How important is video for such users? I assume video doesn’t need to cover the whole frame., or, doesnot need to cover every still image pixel.

Video is usually cropped in a more panoramic aspect ratio, like 16:9 (HD and UHD television), or 2.40:1 ("widescreen"). This means that many video formats cover the full width of the sensor (or nearly for mathematical reasons), but not the whole height. Many video projects are delivered in multiple formats, including vertical for social media, so we can expect that there will be an "open gate" format that uses the full sensor height and can be cropped vertically or horizontally.

How important is video? Arguably, it isn't that important for people who've been buying the GFX and X2d, but it's vital for generations of photographers who work in still and moving images. These days it's very rare to find a commercial or art project that doesn't make use of both stills and video. Even non-photographic projects like sculpture, painting, dance, architecture, etc., need stills and video for documentation and promotional use (web sites, socials, grant applications, client meetings).

Having one camera that can deliver class-leading results in stills and video would be revolutionary for a lot of creators. Granted, the S4 will be expensive, but I know creators who own a full video system and a full stills system, with lenses/batteries/cards/accessories for both. 

[Einst_Stein]

What you said  would not change how SL adapts old S lens. It only means new S could adapt SL lenses, it is also not what about new S lens, unless new S is not S, but a quite different beast,

The other argument, If S and SL are really complementary, then it would be perfectly alright to remove the burden from S.  But I don’t see they are complementary and your argument does not make it sensible. Expect such grade MF to be all-in-one is a wrong expectation. Hasselblad and Fujifilm already proved that. 

Edited August 19 by Einst_Stein

[Stef63]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Here's a different way of looking at it: The S4 will be part of the SL system, just like the SL3, and SL3-S, and the lenses, and the flashes, and other aspects such as L-log and colour response.

What we've seen so far suggests that the adapter to use L-mount lenses on the S4 will be much simpler, fitting inside the mount. This will hopefully make it very expensive, instead of appallingly expensive 😀.

Photographers will also notice that the S4 has the same interface as the SL bodies, so they can be used together without any adaptation period.

 

@BernardC The way it’s phrased gives the impression that you’re very certain and have information others might not. If that’s the case, it would be great if you could confirm. 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Stef63 said:

The way it’s phrased gives the impression that you’re very certain and have information others might not. If that’s the case, it would be great if you could confirm. 

I have no insider information. One of the rumour sites published a screen grab from a Leica presentation where we saw an SL-style body with a very large lens mount that sits proud of the body. Leica has also publicly stated that the "S4" will be compatible with L-mount, M mount, and S mount lenses via adapters. Given the lack of space to move the mount closer to the sensor, one logical way to implement this would be to have the L-mount adapter sit inside the new mount instead of the usual setup (adapter between mount and lens).

This wouldn't be unprecedented. Pentax and Yashica both had M42 adapters that sat inside their K and Y/C mounts, 50 years ago.

My speculation about video is just that. There's a big demand for "large format" video, and no hybrid bodies to shoot with. You can rent professional large format cameras from Arriflex, Blackmagic, and Red, but renting doesn't make financial sense, or practical sense, for many projects. If I worked for Leica I would push hard for them to hit that market, it's wide-open right now. Fuji has teased a cine-style body, so it might not be a greenfield market for long.

2 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

What you said  would not change how SL adapts old S lens. It only means new S could adapt SL lenses, it is also not what about new S lens, unless new S is not S, but a quite different beast,

Leica has stated that there will be a new mount and lens line for the S replacement, and that there will be adapters for existing mounts. 

[Stef63]

The title of this topic is still correct … S4 speculations

[Pieter12]

7 minutes ago, BernardC said:

but renting doesn't make financial sense, or practical sense, for many projects

Video projects usually take place over short periods of time when subjects (actors, events) are available or employed. Renting makes extremely practical sense for most projects. The burden of a very large expense is avoided, the latest equipment is available and all the costs can be marked-up and passed on to the client if there is one. Rental equipment is well-maintained and replacements are made for malfunctioning gear. You can also rent back-ups without having to make major investments in additional purchases.

[Einst_Stein]

34 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

The title of this topic is still correct … S4 speculations

No, Leica makes it clearly not the continuation of S family. Maybe a new thread about post-S MF would be more appropriate, or, if the prediction of video emphasis is correct, Leica's high-end MF Still/movie bybrid camera?

Edited August 19 by Einst_Stein

[BernardC]

@Pieter12 I agree for some types of projects, but a lot of work is looser these days. Besides, your only hope of renting a large format cine camera are if you live near a large production centre (London, NY, LA, maybe Atlanta). Even then you'll need to book in advance and spend a few hours picking-up and returning the equipment before and after your shoot. That's fine for bigger budget and longer lead times. I've spent a few youthful dawns in rented cube vans at rental houses; it's certainly not an agile workflow for freelancers and smaller/quicker productions. I think there's a big latent demand for a smaller and relatively affordable larger-format video camera that can produce top-notch images even if it isn't as capable as a "real" Arri/Blackmagic. We've been promised this for years, but the tech wasn't ready yet. The S-007 and S3 both had video outputs (as does the GFX), but they were let down by hardware limitations. It's about time that someone released a medium format hybrid camera that can do real video. Leica was first for Super 35/APS-C (the SL had 10-bit log years before Sony), and in the leading bunch for "full frame", so there's hope that they can do it again.

[Stef63]

29 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

No, Leica makes it clearly not the continuation of S family. Maybe a new thread about post-S MF would be more appropriate, or, if the prediction of video emphasis is correct, Leica's high-end MF Still/movie bybrid camera?

I was referring to the “speculation” part of the title of course. People tend to use very convincing wording as if they know for a fact that Leica will do this or do that.  The grain of salt is always handy, but on the other hand it seems to be part of the fun to own a Leica to speculate about the next model.  And it is always enjoyable to read or to participate.  Isn’t it time to start a thread about the next gen - whatever they may be called - MF lenses ☺️

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[Einst_Stein]

7 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

I was referring to the “speculation” part of the title of course. People tend to use very convincing wording as if they know for a fact that Leica will do this or do that.  The grain of salt is always handy, but on the other hand it seems to be part of the fun to own a Leica to speculate about the next model.  And it is always enjoyable to read or to participate.  Isn’t it time to start a thread about the next gen - whatever they may be called - MF lenses ☺️

Wish it not under S system or SL system. Should be something new! 

"Leica Speculated New System?

Edited August 19 by Einst_Stein

[Pieter12]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

@Pieter12 I agree for some types of projects, but a lot of work is looser these days. Besides, your only hope of renting a large format cine camera are if you live near a large production centre (London, NY, LA, maybe Atlanta). Even then you'll need to book in advance and spend a few hours picking-up and returning the equipment before and after your shoot. That's fine for bigger budget and longer lead times. I've spent a few youthful dawns in rented cube vans at rental houses; it's certainly not an agile workflow for freelancers and smaller/quicker productions. I think there's a big latent demand for a smaller and relatively affordable larger-format video camera that can produce top-notch images even if it isn't as capable as a "real" Arri/Blackmagic. We've been promised this for years, but the tech wasn't ready yet. The S-007 and S3 both had video outputs (as does the GFX), but they were let down by hardware limitations. It's about time that someone released a medium format hybrid camera that can do real video. Leica was first for Super 35/APS-C (the SL had 10-bit log years before Sony), and in the leading bunch for "full frame", so there's hope that they can do it again.

And how does one assume that a Leica video camera would be relatively affordable?