Is Leica losing its' touch with new releases?

[LocalHero1953]

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50 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Of course.  My question is more of the practical aspect. How is a quality inspector supposed to find a failure that has not yet occurred?  It would be doable by a complete tear-down of the camera which one could do by pulling,say, one in thousand off a mass production line, but with individually assembled cameras it would reduce the factory output to zero. 

Neither you (dentist) nor I (geologist) have any credentials in manufacturing quality control, but frankly I doubt that Leica is the only manufacturer (even with hand assembly) that has had to deal with such issues in low production runs. The fact that you or I cannot tell Leica how to do it does not mean it cannot be done, and that others are not already doing it.

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[jaapv]

Well, in the medical world reliability and safety are paramount. We are legally obliged to be aware of quality and certification requirements. 

[earleygallery]

Leica lost their way when they dropped the LTM cameras for the M3. I knew it was downhill from there. 

[LocalHero1953]

The Leica Standard was the pinnacle. Everything else is just a special edition.

[summicron75]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. My 2 cents is that there is now a certain head in the sand mentality at Leica, coupled with a breathtaking arrogance that has made the last few releases disappointing on many levels. I would further add, although this isn´t relevant to the thread, that this mentality and arrogance seems to exist in many members of this forum specially the so called "senior" ones. Criticising Leica has become a very polemical, touchy issue, no matter how obviously deserved that criticism is. The M11 has been a catastrophic failure and yet certain people seem intent on dying on the hill of "it is just a few users, try a different SD card" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The SL3 and 3-S are backwards in almost every sense. Even the Q3 models, whilst successful and largely bug-free have lost, IMO, much of the aesthetic beauty and magic of the original Q.

I say this as someone who has used and championed Leica for many years. I have gone back to the SL2-S and am about to purchase an M10-P.

The attitude of Leica, in my experience, is going to sink them ultimately. Or at the very least it is going to lose them the reputation and kudos that they have earned of decades. I will never forget being told that it would be better for me to buy online than in person because, presumably, they were having a Pretty Woman moment and didn´t feel I represented their desired customer profile.

The new lenses are obscenely over-priced for what they are, especially the limited editions, ditto the accessories. The bodies, for me, are worth the money assuming (a now-impossible assumption) that they do the job they are supposed to do. Obviously there is margin for a few bugs that can be ironed out with firmware or the occasional freeze. But this is so, so, so much worse than that. It shows a borderline contempt for their customers, a greed and hunger for profit above everything else and it is, for me, genuinely sad to see.

[Ray Vonn]

2 hours ago, summicron75 said:

I will never forget being told that it would be better for me to buy online than in person because, presumably, they were having a Pretty Woman moment and didn´t feel I represented their desired customer profile.

May I ask what store that was?

[Luke_Miller]

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5 hours ago, summicron75 said:

I say this as someone who has used and championed Leica for many years. I have gone back to the SL2-S and am about to purchase an M10-P.

Currently I shoot with the M240, M246, SL (Typ 601), SL2 and SL2-S.  I have no interest in the SL3 cameras, nor the M11s. So, while I agree with your assessment of the new models, I am not sure the issue is one of attitude on Leica's part. I think Leica, like the other camera makers, is struggling with the challenges of a shrinking market. In order to attract new customers to the brand and entice current customers to purchase the latest model there needs to be new features and performance.  My reaction to the new models is that while the new features and performance in and of themselves are desirable, the design choices Leica made incorporating them damages the previously elegant designs and user experience. So I find the SL3 bodies to be "better" as cameras, but less appealing than my SL and SL2 cameras.  Fortunately, they meet my needs so I can pass on the SL3 versions.

To my mind Leica could have produced an SL3 that retained the elegance of the previous models but instead chose to go with changes to emphasize that the SL3 is "new and improved". As someone who prefers the look and feel of the SL to that of the SL2, I find the SL3 to be "a bridge too far".  I don't think that results from any contempt on the part of Leica for customers, but rather from an unfortunate marketing decision.  

[Planetwide]

I must be an outlier, My M240's were fine. My 2x original SL's were fine. My SL2 & SL2s were both fine & knock on wood, my SL3 has been fine. I really like the output from the SL3, and also the original SL. Never really warmed up to the SL2 for some reason. For me, the SL 50lux & SL APO lenses are the reason that I shoot the SL series. If I want character or lens flaws, depending upon your point of view, I throw an old M lens on the SL.

I have had camera's serviced in a week flat at Leica Germany. Leica does need to address the service interval in North America.

Forums are where people complain, and probably represent a larger ratio to happy users. I think that complaints are a valuable feedback to any company. Dismissing complaints is counter productive to product refinement. Complaints also help me make an informed decision on a purchase, we all know that Leica's are not inexpensive to purchase. 

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, summicron75 said:

The M11 has been a catastrophic failure

The M11 has had freezing problems which have been addressed by firmware updates (yours was another issue that was not, but you got your money back). The M11 has also a magenta cast issue, which can be mitigated in post processing.

If that's a catastrophic failure, where does that put the M9 (mass sensor failure, fixed only in Solms/Wetzlar) and S006 (same thing)? Or the S lenses with motor failures fixed by recall? They must represent the end of the world.

[summicron75]

35 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The M11 has had freezing problems which have been addressed by firmware updates (yours was another issue that was not, but you got your money back). The M11 has also a magenta cast issue, which can be mitigated in post processing.

Some issues have been addressed. By no means all and by no means definitively. And I got my money back for my latest M11-D. Not for the previous three iterations that suffered from freezing issues and others. 
Perhaps the words catastrophic is hyperbole but clearly it is a major issue affecting a large number of users. Certainly for me personally it has been a catastrophic failure. 

Edited February 16 by summicron75

[IkarusJohn]

30 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The M11 has had freezing problems which have been addressed by firmware updates (yours was another issue that was not, but you got your money back). The M11 has also a magenta cast issue, which can be mitigated in post processing.

If that's a catastrophic failure, where does that put the M9 (mass sensor failure, fixed only in Solms/Wetzlar) and S006 (same thing)? Or the S lenses with motor failures fixed by recall? They must represent the end of the world.

I think my experiences with digital Leicas could be called catastrophic, but that doesn't mean the World is coming to an end.  It has meant I'm unlikely to buy another digital M, shifting digital photography to Hasselblad as my digital Leicas die (I'l repair them for as long as that is possible and financially feasible).

I have no problem with people liking their M11 cameras, and I believe people when they say that the M11 series cameras are selling like hotcakes (with no supporting evidence), but from the get go the camera has been plagued with issues - not everyone, but still a poor release - not just bricking, but freezing and magenta shift, people having problems with Usb-C charging and on it goes.  Maybe a minority (how would we know), but lots of different people posting lots of different issues in the M11 threads.

Not a good look.

[jaapv]

I would say that the undisputed  M11 problems are the result of attempting to push too much present day technology into a vintage design and concept. That is a design failure. No amount of quality control can prevent such issues. 

[Planetwide]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I would say that the undisputed  M11 problems are the result of attempting to push too much present day technology into a vintage design and concept. That is a design failure. No amount of quality control can prevent such issues. 

Are you saying that the M series has run its course. That any future M's are not possible? 

Or

Leica selected poor components for its circuit boards, or it was poor manufacturing (supplier), that their design for the M11 was flawed?

[jaapv]

No it is not the end of the M series but in my opinion they should return to the essence of the M series which is the best manual oriented camera with a rangefinder and stop trying to squeeze a Sony into an M3. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

All systems have issues. But Leica is the most unreliable/unfinished/low QC brand in the world right now. And it's definitely affecting my use of Leica cameras and my desire for the brand. I get that it's a small company with a lot of human input. I expect that something made entirely by a machine will be somewhat more reliable. But I want better.

6 months for a repair is unacceptable. More so when a company is profitable. And no, I don't buy into it takes too long to train them BS. It's been this way for decades. Yes I'm sure you can drive to Wetzlar and jump the que. But that means the rest of us wait even longer so a precious few have a wonderful experience. My SL's have been reliable, mostly. Same with my Q's. But I've had more than one M body where the RF was out on opening the box. More than one lens also out. And you've paid thousands for it to go on a 4-6 month holiday, unused. Not good enough. When I had the one issue with my SL601, it took 5 months and I used those cameras for work. I believe in self sufficiency but that's a long time to align a sensor. My personal record was a 90mm Summarit that had two trips to Germany and that took 11 months.

I just picked up my A1 mk2 and the 28-70 f2.0. It's boring as bat shit. Some call it a 7K firmware upgrade. I hate the buttons and menus. But it just works. Charged the battery and set up the camera. I didn't think for a nano second that it might have issues. I always have that with a new Leica. What's the catch? The IQ of the 28-70 is fabulous. Basically a set of SL APO's in one lens. I'm not wondering where the glitches are, or what type of SD cards might work. Or whether they'll ever get the animal firmware out of *beta*. I prefer the SL3 body in every way but I'm so tired of seeing that *beta* AF thing. It's been a YEAR already. I don't think they'll ever do better. Maybe they'll remove the tag in firmware or release another dozen special edition Soforts. I doubt the animal AF will actually get better. Sure it took me an hour to set the Sony up. But now I can forget about it. The experience sucks but it's balanced out with me not wondering if it'll do it's job today. And why does my SL3 take a different amount of time to start up each time? Shit like that is a red flag.

Leicas are an emotional purchase. No, the M doesn't have any special sauce and yes you can find lenses as good as the APO's. Or good enough you can't see the difference. Leicas don't make better images. It's the feel in hand and the shooting experience. And, for me, I'm slowly losing the joy of shooting Leicas because they don't get out of the way like they should. That shooting experience means nothing if it's no fun. If in the back of my mind I have to wonder if my M11 will freeze up today, or why I'm using beta firmware a year in on my SL3. Or whether like the CL they'll just cut the whole thing and leave us with no upgrade path.

When a company takes months to do a warranty repair or a firmware fix (a year for the M11. Or was it two years?) it's obvious the company has no regard for the customers. I'm happy the company is healthy. But it feels like they are only interested in the money. That's a taste I don't like having. When I picked up my Q3-43 it was HUNDREDS extra for the thumb grip. Just the though of how much of a money grab is has spoiled the camera for me. I got the exact same stuff with the exact same quality for less than half of that but that bitter after taste still lingers. I am seriously thinking it's time to get out of Leica altogether because there's no support, really. Once they have your cash you're on your own. And that's not enough, for me, anymore.

Bizarrely I'm off on a Leica Academei trip next mont and out of three choices (Hasselblad, Sony and Leica) the Leica is currently in 3rd place...... I'm actully tempted to take one Sony camera and one zooms lens. 

Gordon

[ALScott]

This is a silly post in my mind as you can't disprove a negative so why beat this dead horse once again.  You either like and want Leica or you don't.  if you don't just move on for the love that is all good and kind.  Every, EVERY product by any manufacturer has its shortcomings and disappointments.  If you don't mind cameras that look like someone has thrown up buttons and controls all over the top and back wrapped in gobs of cheap plastic then buy anything besides a Leica, be happy and move along.  My Q3, M11P, SL3 and SL3S have given me nothing but what Leica promised, beautiful low touch images that I am very happy with.  I am happy to be a fanboy as a Leica Q3 rekindled a love for photography which I had lost for many years.  Part of it was doing it for a living and later was due to the laborious task of editing.  When I ran the first pics from the Q3 through LRc and they needed little to no editing I was sold.  I bought in 100%.  No camera I ever had before did that, not even close.  The freedom and range of that sensor was a game changer too.  I had always been a Canon guy, knew Nikon well and really planned to go Sony when I got the Q3 but just comparing the UI of those plus size of options I went Leica Q3.  Again, the layout of all but Leica gave me hives just looking at them.  I hated all that poor UI crap but put up with it for years because I had to.  This time I could make a choice and I did.  I am glad I made the choice I did.  If you aren't move along.  This is a Leica forum right, not a why Panasonic, Sony, Nikon, and Canon is better than Leica forum.  Go read Bimmerpost.com if you want to see a truly helpful forum that doesn't seem to be so focused on sh*tting on the products it is supposed to be supporting.  I am all for discussing and helping each other with issues with our products but not poo-pooing on the entire brand as a whole, I don't get it.  I LOVE LEICA!

Edited February 18 by ALScott

[costa43]

17 hours ago, jaapv said:

No it is not the end of the M series but in my opinion they should return to the essence of the M series which is the best manual oriented camera with a rangefinder and stop trying to squeeze a Sony into an M3. 

Yes please. You tell ‘em Jaapv! 

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, ALScott said:

This is a silly post in my mind as you can't disprove a negative so why beat this dead horse once again.  You either like and want Leica or you don't.  if you don't just move on for the love that is all good and kind.  Every, EVERY product by any manufacturer has its shortcomings and disappointments.  If you don't mind cameras that look like someone has thrown up buttons and controls all over the top and back wrapped in gobs of cheap plastic then buy anything besides a Leica, be happy and move along.  My Q3, M11P, SL3 and SL3S have given me nothing but what Leica promised, beautiful low touch images that I am very happy with.  I am happy to be a fanboy as a Leica Q3 rekindled a love for photography which I had lost for many years.  Part of it was doing it for a living and later was due to the laborious task of editing.  When I ran the first pics from the Q3 through LRc and they needed little to no editing I was sold.  I bought in 100%.  No camera I ever had before did that, not even close.  The freedom and range of that sensor was a game changer too.  I had always been a Canon guy, knew Nikon well and really planned to go Sony when I got the Q3 but just comparing the UI of those plus size of options I went Leica Q3.  Again, the layout of all but Leica gave me hives just looking at them.  I hated all that poor UI crap but put up with it for years because I had to.  This time I could make a choice and I did.  I am glad I made the choice I did.  If you aren't move along.  This is a Leica forum right, not a why Panasonic, Sony, Nikon, and Canon is better than Leica forum.  Go read Bimmerpost.com if you want to see a truly helpful forum that doesn't seem to be so focused on sh*tting on the products it is supposed to be supporting.  I am all for discussing and helping each other with issues with our products but not poo-pooing on the entire brand as a whole, I don't get it.  I LOVE LEICA!

Umm, I think almost every member of this forum would agree with you.  At some stage.  That’s why they’re here.  Post back when you have a failure of a lens or camera, and it has to go back to Wetzlar.  Or better still, when you buy the M12 as an early adopter …

 

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[Viv]

3 hours ago, ALScott said:

This is a silly post in my mind as you can't disprove a negative so why beat this dead horse once again.  You either like and want Leica or you don't.  if you don't just move on for the love that is all good and kind.  Every, EVERY product by any manufacturer has its shortcomings and disappointments.  If you don't mind cameras that look like someone has thrown up buttons and controls all over the top and back wrapped in gobs of cheap plastic then buy anything besides a Leica, be happy and move along.  My Q3, M11P, SL3 and SL3S have given me nothing but what Leica promised, beautiful low touch images that I am very happy with.  I am happy to be a fanboy as a Leica Q3 rekindled a love for photography which I had lost for many years.  Part of it was doing it for a living and later was due to the laborious task of editing.  When I ran the first pics from the Q3 through LRc and they needed little to no editing I was sold.  I bought in 100%.  No camera I ever had before did that, not even close.  The freedom and range of that sensor was a game changer too.  I had always been a Canon guy, knew Nikon well and really planned to go Sony when I got the Q3 but just comparing the UI of those plus size of options I went Leica Q3.  Again, the layout of all but Leica gave me hives just looking at them.  I hated all that poor UI crap but put up with it for years because I had to.  This time I could make a choice and I did.  I am glad I made the choice I did.  If you aren't move along.  This is a Leica forum right, not a why Panasonic, Sony, Nikon, and Canon is better than Leica forum.  Go read Bimmerpost.com if you want to see a truly helpful forum that doesn't seem to be so focused on sh*tting on the products it is supposed to be supporting.  I am all for discussing and helping each other with issues with our products but not poo-pooing on the entire brand as a whole, I don't get it.  I LOVE LEICA!

I agree with every word.

[Viv]

18 hours ago, jaapv said:

No it is not the end of the M series but in my opinion they should return to the essence of the M series which is the best manual oriented camera with a rangefinder and stop trying to squeeze a Sony into an M3. 

I have sometimes advocated a M camera with no screen and no exposure meter. Not entirely tongue in cheek.