EVF M rumoured

[Herr Barnack]

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On 2/16/2025 at 7:01 AM, TeleElmar135mm said:

... nuclear is out here in Germany - the M12 will have a solar-cell-hat, connected in the hot shoe and a solar thermie panel for the winter model   

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This will provide M12 street photographers with heretofore unprecedented levels of stealthiness. 

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[Stevejack]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Yes interesting point indeed. I believe i prefer making than taking too but the border is thin in between. I use more and more Leica Perspective Control for instance, which allows to view outside the frame too. Helps me giving wide images a "50mm perspective" so to speak and photos look more "natural" to me. What am i doing then, making more than taking i guess but is it the same if the aim is to come closer to the reality?

Yeah, it's almost crazy to me to think about photography as Winogrand describes it. I've never really appreciated his work, watching videos showing the way he photographs it seemed far more like a person running around with burst mode on a modern mirrorless just hoping to record something interesting but essentially relying on good fortune to produce a well structured photograph. Harsh maybe, but that was my perception.

Listening to him talk like this though I can kind of see his point. He wasn't interested in 'crafting' a pleasing photograph at all. He just wanted the camera to record what he saw, period, and if that made a pleasing photograph - great - but if not, no big deal. I've heard him say similar things in other interviews but never really understood him until now I think (or maybe I still don't!?). It's hard to tell with him whether he's just riffing in the moment or whether he actually believes his own words. 

[Stevejack]

8 hours ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

So where have we gotten to here?

These viewfinder technologies each have a place - in those situations for which one or the other is optimal. 

That said, it's a heck of a lot easier to fit an updated, high-res auxiliary EVF to a rangefinder M body than it would be to add an auxiliary coupled optical rangefinder to an EVF-based body. 

Once an EVF is in place, either built-in or in the accessory shoe, we then get to the various techniques that have been invented to ease or to speed focusing with the EVF. 

But then, there remains the matter of being able to view outside the frame lines, something many rangefinder users value. 

I don't think it's been shown yet that any of the current approaches, or even all of them taken together, result in an EVF that can replace the optical rangefinder for all the situations in which the rangefinder might still hold an advantage (especially for seasoned users of the rangefinder).

At the same time, magnification and peaking aren't practical in a strictly optical system, not without various technological gymnastics that stretch what's possible with current technology and result in compromised results.  

So where all of this does leave the Leica M user? 

1) For right now, it leaves us with the Visoflex 2, for use in those situations in which it offers an advantage. (It leaves me thinking I'd be delighted with a Visoflex 3, with higher resolution than the 2. I'd use it when it was preferable for a given situation)

3) it leaves those who prefer an electronic viewfinder overall with wishing for an SL in M clothing, or settling for the Visoflex 2, or wishing for the Visoflex 3.

If the form factor of the M is critical to a user who wants an electronic viewfinder exclusively, that user might well wish for the Leica equivalent of the Fujifilm XE line.

I don't think I'd call that an M, though. 

And, it doesn't seem as if Leica feels a hybrid system of rangefinder and EVF, all in one, is ready for prime time yet. 

Yeah. For me, I'll use the Visoflex 2 when there's a reason to, and maybe wish for a Visoflex 3 when it comes along. 

You've hit the nail on the head here. There really isn't one good solution, it will always be a compromise. A high res Visoflex 3 would keep me pretty happy. There is a lot to like about the Visoflex 2 in combination with the rangefinder.

There's just no way I could use an EVF which is the same quality as the Visoflex as a standalone viewfinder. It would be fine in an autofocus camera with focus confirmation squares etc, we all made do with low res EVFs for years on the early mirrorless cameras... but for manual focus lenses the display is just not up to the task when you don't have the luxury of time to bring up your focus aids before hitting the shutter.

[Smogg]

5 hours ago, Stevejack said:

Yeah, it's almost crazy to me to think about photography as Winogrand describes it. I've never really appreciated his work, watching videos showing the way he photographs it seemed far more like a person running around with burst mode on a modern mirrorless just hoping to record something interesting but essentially relying on good fortune to produce a well structured photograph. Harsh maybe, but that was my perception.

Listening to him talk like this though I can kind of see his point. He wasn't interested in 'crafting' a pleasing photograph at all. He just wanted the camera to record what he saw, period, and if that made a pleasing photograph - great - but if not, no big deal. I've heard him say similar things in other interviews but never really understood him until now I think (or maybe I still don't!?). It's hard to tell with him whether he's just riffing in the moment or whether he actually believes his own words. 

Most of the famous photographers from Magnum do the same. They shoot a LOT. In fact, the selection when viewing the footage means no less than the shooting itself. 3-4 good shots out of 500-1000 is a good result.

[jaapv]

Yes, but they do hit those shots. Most of us would be happy to do so as well. 

[pgk]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes, but they do hit those shots. Most of us would be happy to do so as well. 

Do they? I can't think of many (any) recent Magnum shots that have significantly premeated my consciousness. This may of course be because I'm looking in the wrong places. 

[DrM]

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I hope there will be an optical viewfinder option on the M12, a real Messsucher, not an EVF "Mistsucher"..

[IkarusJohn]

2 minutes ago, DrM said:

I hope there will be an optical viewfinder option on the M12, a real Messsucher, not an EVF "Mistsucher"..

I don’t think there is any risk (or suggestion) that the OVF will be discontinued.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

Do they? I can't think of many (any) recent Magnum shots that have significantly premeated my consciousness. This may of course be because I'm looking in the wrong places. 

Well, we must charitably assume that they are Magnum photographers for a reason. 😉

[charlesphoto99]

12 hours ago, Smogg said:

Most of the famous photographers from Magnum do the same. They shoot a LOT. In fact, the selection when viewing the footage means no less than the shooting itself. 3-4 good shots out of 500-1000 is a good result.

I would say it's closer to 400 out of 500 'good' shots. Where their superpowers lies is in 3-4 of them being truly amazing photos - and the ability to edit what they've taken down to those. 

[Smogg]

3 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I would say it's closer to 400 out of 500 'good' shots. Where their superpowers lies is in 3-4 of them being truly amazing photos - and the ability to edit what they've taken down to those. 

I have heard more than once in interviews or films that they are happy to take 40-50 good photographs in a year. 400-500 is a good result for the whole career

Edited February 19 by Smogg

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1 hour ago, Smogg said:

I have heard more than once in interviews or films that they are happy to take 40-50 good photographs in a year. 400-500 is a good result for the whole career

The Magnum Contact Sheets appears to support this view.

[Derbyshire Man]

What's more, pro's don't typically edited their own photo's, that's what photo editors are for!

[Smogg]

31 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

What's more, pro's don't typically edited their own photo's, that's what photo editors are for!

I would differentiate between pro’s and famous photographers. Professionals are first and foremost good craftsmen. Like a good shoemaker who makes shoes using someone else's patterns. Anyone who shoots weddings for money is considered a pro. Not everyone does it well and very few whose work is of interest to art.

[Derbyshire Man]

5 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I would differentiate between pro’s and famous photographers. Professionals are first and foremost good craftsmen. Like a good shoemaker who makes shoes using someone else's patterns. Anyone who shoots weddings for money is considered a pro. Not everyone does it well and very few whose work is of interest to art.

Agree, I was referring to Magnum style photographers/news smudgers rather than wedding/headshot/highstreet/parties etc.

[Jon Warwick]

2 hours ago, Smogg said:

I have heard more than once in interviews or films that they are happy to take 40-50 good photographs in a year. 400-500 is a good result for the whole career

As a non-related (non-Magnum) example, Avedon - for his multi-year and very famous American West project - shot c 17,000 sheets of B&W 8x10, and curated it down to just over 100 final images (and apparently destroyed the rest of the negatives). Now that’s hard work and control over a legacy, IMHO.

Edited February 19 by Jon Warwick

[Derbyshire Man]

1 minute ago, Jon Warwick said:

As a non-related (non-Magnum) example, Avedon - for his multi-year and very famous American West project - shot c 17,000 sheets of B&W 8x10, and curated it down to just over 100 final images (and apparently destroyed the rest of the negatives). Now that’s hard work and control over a legacy, IMHO.

Interesting in the book On Being A Photographer it was suggested that the last person who should be editing photographs on projects like that was the photographer and that images shouldn't be destroyed as it is impossible to know the importance of many of them until looking back from the distant future.

[pgk]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Well, we must charitably assume that they are Magnum photographers for a reason. 😉

The world changes, as we are seeing. The outlets for photography have and are changing. I just don't see any work from Magnum except occasionally in photo related stuff.

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Hallo,

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[pgh]

1 hour ago, Derbyshire Man said:

What's more, pro's don't typically edited their own photo's, that's what photo editors are for!

A typical editorial photo editor will assign a shoot and choose what is published only after the photographer has submitted a narrowed selection of what they produced. The better the photographer is at editing their own work, the better the photo editor looks. But yea, we absolutely do edit our own photos. 

[pgh]

With regards to an EVF M, the question I have to ask is why? What problem does it solve that an SL doesn’t? 

I will keep an open mind, but manually focusing on mirrorless is generally an inferior and slower experience to using the M rangefinders - a major point of using an M other than the IQ / Size ratio. But you’ll likely pay more money to not be able to use AF lenses.

If they can somehow make a fantastic focusing experience that is not slower than the RF, I could be interested. However, I really just don’t love looking at screens anymore than I have to. And if they’re going to make some new tech like this for old lenses, it better have IBIS. 

If not, there’s no reason not to just use an SL - which takes M lenses nicely, and in practical terms, esp carried in a bag is only negligible in its size and weight difference. If no IBIS than I wonder if what they are making is likely a differently shaped but worse SL variant.