EVF M rumoured

[hexx]

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I can see Leica offering 2 branches in the M line. One with pure RF and other with EVF, either as pure EVF or some sort of hybrid tunnel finder with EVF overlay. 
 

RF only model being pure RF experience, going back to M10 like experience I guess. From what I’ve been reading, people say M10 was “purer” than M11. I wouldn’t know, never had one. I went from M6 to M240 and then sold both and got Q3. 
 

The EVF/hybrid would be for those that find RF challenging for whatever reasons (for me it was mostly longer lenses - I had a problem with 90mm lens and eventually sold it) and would like more convenience of modern sensor read-out linked benefits to aid with manual focusing of beloved M lenses in a familiar RF styled body. 
 

That’s what kept me from buying SL, it felt just too big and heavy for what I wanted. SL is great system but it’s AF system for SL lenses or any other lens one can mount via adapter. 
 

So yeah, I’d love to see M line as a continuation of RF models and EVF based models in familiar M body and experience. 

Edited September 1 by hexx

[pgk]

1 hour ago, hexx said:

The EVF/hybrid would be for those that find RF challenging for whatever reasons (for me it was mostly longer lenses - I had a problem with 90mm lens and eventually sold it) and would like more convenience of modern sensor read-out linked benefits to aid with manual focusing of beloved M lenses in a familiar RF styled body.

That seems to be the concensus, but its a niche market share within an already small market share isn't it? Because being totally objective about the concept, is it going to attract many non-M users away from higher specified, very effective and cheaper EVF cameras from other makers? Honestly?

If we look at history and try to learn from it, there are two examples of deviating from the original M concept - the CL and the M5. Neither form survived. My guess is that the base, fundamental problem with an EVF-M is quite simply how many units will sell. I'm sure that there may be a flurry of initial orders but the concept of a manual focus EVF camera in today's world is anachronistic, in that its adherents will no doubt mostly come from an M background rather than anywhere else.

I could see such a body being quite useful personally, but not for use with M lenses, nor at the inevitably crazy high price it will probably demand. So I'm not anti it per se although I do think it would be a distraction and is unlikely to be a success.

[FrozenInTime]

Hybrid ( OVF without rangefinder plus EVF ) seems technically straightforward; a close copy for the X100; i.e. OLED panel where the M11  frame lines masks sit ( no RF path ).

If Leica go down the 60 Mpixel hybrid ( optical viewfinder without optical rangefinder + EVF ) route, that will ensure prices remain on par with the M11 series.

Bringing the cost closer to that of the SL3-S would be preferable to many; the tradeoff, as well as 24 Mpixel sensor, would likely be the removal the both the optical RF and optical viewfinder windows, leaving a pure EVF design.

Edited September 1 by FrozenInTime

[wizard]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb pgk:

in that its adherents will no doubt mostly come from an M background

I am with you on that one. 

 

vor 39 Minuten schrieb pgk:

at the inevitably crazy high price it will probably demand. So I'm not anti it per se although I do think it would be a distraction and is unlikely to be a success.

Well, the current optical M viewfinder is complex and expensive to make. An EVF-M, which would no longer have the current optical viewfinder unit, must be quite a bit cheaper to produce and should, therefore, actually be less expensive than a current M11/M11P. And Leica may well need an EVF-M to sustain its M business. Else they would still be making LTM bodies.

[pgk]

32 minutes ago, wizard said:

An EVF-M, which would no longer have the current optical viewfinder unit, must be quite a bit cheaper to produce and should, therefore, actually be less expensive than a current M11/M11P.

I would suggest that the liklihood of an EVF-M being less expensive is low.

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, pgk said:

I would suggest that the liklihood of an EVF-M being less expensive is low.

I agree. If it is indeed cheaper to make (as it should be) then the higher margin means Leica don't need to sell as many to make it profitable.

[jaapv]

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Maybe a special limited edition @ 12.000 euro?

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Maybe a special limited edition @ 12.000 euro?

Isn't the EVF M a special edition in itself? Considering this your 12K is too low . . .

[wizard]

vor einer Stunde schrieb pgk:

I would suggest that the liklihood of an EVF-M being less expensive is low.

I beg to differ, and time will tell. There is a limit to how much people are willing to spend on a camera body, and in my view the current M11P is at that limit.

[pgk]

22 minutes ago, wizard said:

I beg to differ, and time will tell. There is a limit to how much people are willing to spend on a camera body, and in my view the current M11P is at that limit.

I hope that you are right if an EVF-M is produced, but for a small volume, niche product I have no doubt that Leica are well aware of what they might be able to charge given their experience.

[Carrot]

I have tried M cameras, but wearing glasses (and not liking contact lenses, or wanting to take my glasses off all the time to use an eyepiece adaptor) I struggle with the rangefinder, so don't have an M.  I have two SL2-S and have stopped using them with SL APO  lenses as it's now too much weight for me to lug around, and will sell them (the lenses).  But I'm fine with the SL2-S and M lenses using the Leica adaptor, the time it might sometimes take to focus doesn't bother me (I have the EVF set up for monochrome and green peaking). 

I had the SL3 for a while, but in the end sold it because it's slight reduction in height just didn't fit my hands, at least not when using SL APO lenses.  An M-EVF interests me with the c.300g weight saving over the SL2-S, but my decision to get one depends on (i) focusing functionality (e.g. brightness of EVF, decent focus assist aids), (ii) price, and (iii) IBIS (will it have it, and if not can I manage without it shooting lenses between 21mm and 75mm). 

If it turns out not to be for me, I'll happily stick with the SL2-S, though I may then have another look again at the SL3 (probably SL3-S) and see how that feels in my hands with only M lenses.

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, wizard said:

An EVF-M, which would no longer have the current optical viewfinder unit, must be quite a bit cheaper to produce and should, therefore, actually be less expensive than a current M11/M11P.

Maybe the term is "more profitable"? There is no incentive for Leica to make it much less expensive, especially in a context where they are limited by production capacity. 

Logically, the EVF M should be slightly less expensive, but only because this tells customers that the M11 is the desirable model. The last thing they want is to have reviewers call the EVF model a "poor man's Leica." They've been down that road before, and it doesn't lead to where they want to go.

[charlesphoto99]

5 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

Hybrid ( OVF without rangefinder plus EVF ) seems technically straightforward; a close copy for the X100; i.e. OLED panel where the M11  frame lines masks sit ( no RF path ).

 

So, tell us, how does that work with lenses like 90 or 135 where the frame lines are quite small, or an 18, 21, 24mm where there are no frame lines at all? Seems like this 'hybrid' model many are pining for would give us the worst of both worlds. That's why I'm almost 100% sure it will be a full EVF with no OVF window of ay kind. Otherwise it compromises using the very lenses it would be specifically best for. 

[NightPix]

2 hours ago, Carrot said:

I have tried M cameras, but wearing glasses (and not liking contact lenses, or wanting to take my glasses off all the time to use an eyepiece adaptor) I struggle with the rangefinder, so don't have an M.  I have two SL2-S and have stopped using them with SL APO  lenses as it's now too much weight for me to lug around, and will sell them (the lenses).  But I'm fine with the SL2-S and M lenses using the Leica adaptor, the time it might sometimes take to focus doesn't bother me (I have the EVF set up for monochrome and green peaking). 

I had the SL3 for a while, but in the end sold it because it's slight reduction in height just didn't fit my hands, at least not when using SL APO lenses.  An M-EVF interests me with the c.300g weight saving over the SL2-S, but my decision to get one depends on (i) focusing functionality (e.g. brightness of EVF, decent focus assist aids), (ii) price, and (iii) IBIS (will it have it, and if not can I manage without it shooting lenses between 21mm and 75mm). 

If it turns out not to be for me, I'll happily stick with the SL2-S, though I may then have another look again at the SL3 (probably SL3-S) and see how that feels in my hands with only M lenses.

Over in the SL Forum you'll find lots of folks who shoot almost exclusively with M-lenses on their SLs (that's the main way I use my own SL2-s). The biggest complaint you will see is the size of the SL body. In the Q forums there are a lot of hopeful comments about Leica someday offering an interchangeable lens Q. The broader marketplace (ie non-professionals) clearly wants smaller bodies right now (Qs, X100VI, Rx1RIII, DLux8, etc). I doubt Leica has any intention of abandoning the rf technology (or the SL workhorse line) but their business is selling cameras, and they will follow the money. 

Edited September 1 by NightPix

[M8X2]

Digital solutions are often cheaper than mechanical solutions. Cars and other devices have fewer and fewer buttons and more screens for a reason (next step is going to be audio interfaces - still cheaper than a screen). 

If Leica is going to offer a hybrid, e.g. one without RF, where the RF function may be imitated with sensor readout data, Leica may save costs for the RF mechanism, and get the issue of misalignment of Lens and Camera out of the way. For the customer, such solution might have the added benefit of not requiring an extra VF and keeping the hot shoe free for the thumbrest. I would strongly assume that the V is more expensive than the P if they apply such value-based pricing.

That said, really puzzled about the specs per Leicarumors. Why on earth would they only provide 64 GBs of internal memory???

[NightPix]

52 minutes ago, M8X2 said:

That said, really puzzled about the specs per Leicarumors. Why on earth would they only provide 64 GBs of internal memory???

To me the 64 Gb suggests a lower cost than the M11. Of course it's all just rumors, so the numbers could be wrong. Personally I think it will be interesting so see what Leica brings forth.

[Alexander108]

I own an M10M + Visoflex 020 since a few weeks and used it quite a bit during our ongoing Italy vacation. I also own a Q3 which I also love. 

One question that has not been discussed it seems (maybe I overlooked it) is: how do you use the EVF to properly manual focus? As aperture is controlled manually this is rather difficult with my M10M and Visoflex. Especially with aperture 8 or higher. Focus peaking is almost useless at f/11. 

Leica needs to find tools to support manually focusing compared to the Visoflex experience, I guess. 

To nail the focus I use both, the RF to focus and the EVF for composition and exposure checking.

Maybe I miss something. 

[lct]

33 minutes ago, Alexander108 said:

how do you use the EVF to properly manual focus? As aperture is controlled manually this is rather difficult with my M10M and Visoflex. Especially with aperture 8 or higher. Focus peaking is almost useless at f/11. 

Focus magnification + focus peaking works well at f/11. Below M11 + 15/4.5, 50/1.4 and 21/3.4 (FF & crop) lenses:

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Edited September 1 by lct

[Alexander108]

vor 1 Minute schrieb lct:

Focus magnification + focus peaking works well at f/11. Below with 15/4.5, 50/1.4 and 21/3.4 (FF & crop

At least not for me with the M10M and the old Visoflex 020.

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[lct]

Just now, Alexander108 said:

At least not for me with the M10M and the old Visoflex 020.

Same with my M240. M11 + Visoflex 2 or the expected M11-V are (will be) the way to go.