Pelu2010 Posted February 7 Share #121 Posted February 7 Advertisement (gone after registration) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/419064-why-the-m-needs-ibis/?do=findComment&comment=5753598'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 7 Posted February 7 Hi Pelu2010, Take a look here Why the M needs IBIS. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Pelu2010 Posted February 7 Share #122 Posted February 7 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/419064-why-the-m-needs-ibis/?do=findComment&comment=5753601'>More sharing options...
Smogg Posted February 7 Share #123 Posted February 7 Great shots @Pelu2010. I can imagine how much trouble you would have had if you had used an autofocus camera. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 7 Share #124 Posted February 7 21 minutes ago, pippy said: Porsche designed the 928 to be the replacement for the 911 which one or two individuals on the board considered to be utterly obsolete (and by a very long way). The 928 was an extrordinary and extremely capable car. It lasted a mere 17 years. The executives who 'designed' the death of the 911 lasted for less than that. The 911 was introduced in 1964 and is still with us 60 years later. For sure it has been modified all through its lifetime - it hasn't been air-cooled for a quarter of a century - but at heart the essence of 911-driving remains. Leica could do well to consider what M users are really after. Philip. The 911 still drives well, but now is bloated in size and weight compared to its predecessors, and full of driver assist functionality. Hardly desirable M traits. And it costs 7+ times more than the model I bought in 1986. The Cayman, as mentioned above, is far more comparable to the 911 (mostly identical parts) than the 928 ever was. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarbSpieler Posted February 7 Share #125 Posted February 7 The M doesn’t need IBIS, and adding it would go against everything that makes the M special. The beauty of the M system lies in its simplicity, compact form, and the most direct connection between the photographer and the image a digital camera could give. Adding in-body stabilisation would mean increased power consumption, and unnecessary complexity—all of which take away from the purity of the rangefinder experience. Besides, M shooters have survived (and thrived) for decades without IBIS. The M encourages technique, steady hands, and an appreciation for the art of photography rather than reliance on tech crutches. For those who need stabilisation, there are plenty of other systems out there. The M should remain true to what it is—a mechanical masterpiece, camera distilled to the essentials. 3 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 7 Share #126 Posted February 7 2 hours ago, Smogg said: The rangefinder makes it easier to focus in the dark when autofocus cameras refuse to focus. I can absolutely and unequivically say that if you want to focus in very low light there are better alternatives than the rangefinder. I didn't mention autofcus. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelu2010 Posted February 7 Share #127 Posted February 7 Advertisement (gone after registration) 43 minutes ago, Smogg said: Great shots @Pelu2010. I can imagine how much trouble you would have had if you had used an autofocus camera. Exactly Smogg, that where I test every AF camera. Low light 💡 nearly no visibility. Cold weather , rain , snow , no contrast , if it works in this situations and can distinguish people from animals then I can kind of work with the AF. IF not I need some kind of help or intuition or just ISO and f11 or f8. but seriously, I enjoy the Ms a lot because I can see through Glas. Sometimes my right eye goes to hunt for the image on the screen to get confirmation about the exposure. And if the M would have ibis, it would be much easier to hold long shutter exposure. And the wish comes because I know what would be possible > because I tested it with other cameras > but I would love to see it with a M camera. I did some tests with gimbals M and long time exposures but this is a heavy system then and I love it when the camera is small and …. Ibis …. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 7 Share #128 Posted February 7 30 minutes ago, FarbSpieler said: The M doesn’t need IBIS, and adding it would go against everything that makes the M special. How about changing the color of the circuit board inside the body of a digital M? Will that go "against everything that makes the M special?" My point is that an M photographer should not be aware that an IBIS was added (or what is the color of the circuit board). The images may become less blurry when shooting handheld, but the shooting experience should remain unchanged from other digital Ms. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DadDadDaddyo Posted February 7 Share #129 Posted February 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, FarbSpieler said: Besides, M shooters have survived (and thrived) for decades without IBIS. The M encourages technique, steady hands, and an appreciation for the art of photography rather than reliance on tech crutches. For those who need stabilisation, there are plenty of other systems out there. The M should remain true to what it is—a mechanical masterpiece, camera distilled to the essentials. Exactly. This. I've had IBIS on numerous cameras, and have liked it. (Just be sure there's a switch to shut it off when your camera is on a tripod!) But never, not ever, not once, have I thought, "The M is great, but, gee, if only it had IBIS...." Not even once. Edited February 7 by DadDadDaddyo Typo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 7 Share #130 Posted February 7 Nice description of film cameras. Leica still makes them fortunately. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raizans Posted February 7 Author Share #131 Posted February 7 Where do you draw the line? Leica screwmount users decried the M for inessential fripperies in 1954. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 7 Share #132 Posted February 7 2 hours ago, TeleElmar135mm said: sorry ... no it was not a direct reply to you. It was a big sigh about the thread. In Germany we have the expression "verschlimmbessern" . I don't know the exact English translation. It is like make worse. But it is hard to translate ... in a dictionary they say it's "kill the patient with the cure" - I think not bad Great word. My wife is from Dusseldorf so I'll ask her about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted February 7 Share #133 Posted February 7 IBIS? Where are they gonna put it? This is the M10, and the battery on the M11 is even larger. Even if they remove the optical rangefinder and replace it with an EVF, it doesn't give enough space with the current thickness of the M10/11. All cameras with IBIS use room behind the sensor to accommodate the IBIS cage and mechanism that surrounds the sensor on all sides. There is zero room between the back of the sensor and the rear LCD. This is because the flange distance from sensor to M-mount is very long, as in DSLR era long. If they're not going to make the body thicker (which we know would cause M users eyes to roll back in their sockets so far they got permanently stuck that way), they would have to move the rear of the body backward at the same time as moving the front on the camera backward, which would make the mount stick out in front by the same amount. That would mean all M lenses would extend that much further from the front of the camera compared to previous models. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/419064-why-the-m-needs-ibis/?do=findComment&comment=5753654'>More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 7 Share #134 Posted February 7 Here's an idea: how about Leica (and other mfg) stop trying to make 35mm cameras into mini 4X5's? It kind of ruins the original purpose and intent of the format to begin with if one can't easily handhold at 1/30th of second. Or, do as Leica did with the SL, and split the line. That's probably the best way forward. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DadDadDaddyo Posted February 7 Share #135 Posted February 7 (edited) 18 minutes ago, raizans said: Where do you draw the line? Leica screwmount users decried the M for inessential fripperies in 1954. Sure, some did. But not all did. And time has shown that the M mount is solid and fast, a Good Thing. I've got nothing against IBIS as an idea, or even in most of the implementations I've run into. But relying on it to the extent that you call it a necessity, a requirement? Not for me. Let me offer this as a compromise. IBIS is in the world and it's good. Since it's available, there should be cameras that offer it - for those for whom it's importance rises to that of being a requirement. Leica offers it already. That's great! That said, I don't see it as a requirement for the M line, anymore than I see automatic transmission as a requirement for my MX-5. If you can't drive a car unless it has an automatic transmission, that's really kind of sad. You literally may not realize what you're missing. If you have trouble getting a shot at low shutter speeds without IBIS, that's really kind of sad, too. Work on it. You'll get better at it. Really. And guess what: that work will pay off for you, even when you're shooting with a camera that does have IBIS! Edited February 7 by DadDadDaddyo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 7 Share #136 Posted February 7 26 minutes ago, raizans said: Where do you draw the line? Leica screwmount users decried the M for inessential fripperies in 1954. I don't remember that. But I do remember the cries of horror from HCB's followers when i dared using a Leicameter or a Leicawinder, let alone with color film 😱 The Real Leica Man will never change 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 7 Share #137 Posted February 7 2 hours ago, Jeff S said: The 911 still drives well, but now is bloated in size and weight compared to its predecessors... A discussion of 'Where and When Did Porsche Get It Wrong With the 911?' would lead to a thread so long it would make every "Which Strap Should I Use?" thread pale by comparison... Philip. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 7 Share #138 Posted February 7 34 minutes ago, hdmesa said: IBIS? Where are they gonna put it? This is the M10, and the battery on the M11 is even larger. Even if they remove the optical rangefinder and replace it with an EVF, it doesn't give enough space with the current thickness of the M10/11. All cameras with IBIS use room behind the sensor to accommodate the IBIS cage and mechanism that surrounds the sensor on all sides. There is zero room between the back of the sensor and the rear LCD. This is because the flange distance from sensor to M-mount is very long, as in DSLR era long. If they're not going to make the body thicker (which we know would cause M users eyes to roll back in their sockets so far they got permanently stuck that way), they would have to move the rear of the body backward at the same time as moving the front on the camera backward, which would make the mount stick out in front by the same amount. That would mean all M lenses would extend that much further from the front of the camera compared to previous models. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Stefan Daniel addressed the space issue with IBIS. Discussion is here: Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 7 Share #139 Posted February 7 9 minutes ago, pippy said: A discussion of 'Where and When Did Porsche Get It Wrong With the 911?' would lead to a thread so long it would make every "Which Strap Should I Use?" thread pale by comparison... Philip. But you wrote that “the essence of 911 driving remains,” which is why I listed aspects that make me disagree. The rear engine design, without modern stability controls and reduced size and weight, etc, was an entirely different experience, and sometimes not for the better without driver training. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DadDadDaddyo Posted February 8 Share #140 Posted February 8 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Jeff S said: The rear engine design, without modern stability controls and reduced size and weight, etc, was an entirely different experience, and sometimes not for the better without driver training. Yes. And that's why any decent implementation of modern stability controls includes a capability to switch it off when it's not what you want. There's nothing wrong with driver training and experience. This is how it should be with IBIS and OIS as well. Auto-anything is best when you can switch it on - if and when you want it - or make it go away when you don't. I guess Image Stabilization might be thought of as a "need" by folks who "need" it, who might feel lost, locked out, even excluded, without it. You need a shutter speed lower than you can hold? Fine. Grab a body that offers IBIS. Really what I'm hearing is that for some folks, IBIS is a requirement for *them. But that doesn't make it a requirement for the M. C'mon. Just practice, ok? You'll get better at hand holding slow shutter speeds with practice. Really. And you'll like it. Edited February 8 by DadDadDaddyo 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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