Why the M needs IBIS

[Smudgerer]

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It'll probably come about, IBIS that is, there's an electronic solution out there getting nipped, tucked and ready for the show I am sure. "When?" is one question and "how much more added" to the ever increasing costs of the cameras being another, plus what will be dumped to fit it into a body that would be M suicide for Leica to bloat even a fraction of a millimeter to shoe-horn that technology in?

But in one way or another there will be a version of the M that will incorporate IBIS if only to sate the noisy wishes of many who'd like that to happen......... Personally I don't care if it happens or not, maybe it will be useful but there again maybe it will open up another roiling can of worms that will take yet another subsequent M generation to sort out leaving more angry unwilling "beta testers" in it's wake as per the aggravating 3 year old tale of the M11 variants that have only just clawed their way to a modicum of reliability, who knows?

What I as a long term, ( more than five decades......count them ), Leica user would like more than any more electronic tricks stuffed into that elegant body would be simplification, PLUS better QC and PLUS PLUS a vastly improved Leica Service department that would not suck away at least 25% of your warranty time should your new Leica whatever need attention, the situation as it is now is quite obscene and needs to be addressed "tout suite" rather than adding what may well be another rack of problems to the next M...............And so it goes.

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I wish it would be that simple. All cameras sans IBIS have not this same issue and as Leica said thelselves and has been recalled above, « it isn't ruled out that the image stabilizer could be integrated into the M at some point, for example, if we would do without the mechanical shutter and so the necessary space would be available again ». What i'm reading in this thread makes me fear that Leica did not find the solution for the M12.

Really? which cameras of 60mp and no IBIS don't have this issue?

I could imagine a product split of a standard high res sensor with no IBIS without body size changes or a stacked with global shutter with IBIS but ironically if it remains at 24mp then the need for it evaporates, it would seem only sensible to make the redesign effort if there is a 40mp sensor with global shutter or higher.

Personally, I don't have a problem with 60mp and no IBIS, I can manage 1/2f all the time and 1/f most of the time if I concentrate - which is similar to film.

Edited February 8 by Derbyshire Man

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb DadDadDaddyo:

It's not the M that needs Image Stabilization, it's *today's photographers* that seem to need it. 

See, I can't quite escape the thought that the net result of *all* cameras *needing* image Stabilization will be that the fine art of holding and using a camera in low light will be lost. It's already lost to a whole generation of photographers who can't imagine working in low light without it.

No, it's not about "the fine art of holding and using a camera," as some "daddys" would want us believe. It's about the desire to go beyond the limits imposed on us by outdated technology.

[pgk]

2 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

It's about the desire to go beyond the limits imposed on us by outdated technology.

So why retain the form factor and outdated viewfinder. No matter what is done to the M it will not have as precise a viewfinder system as that built into larger cameras merely because it is small. I have no problem with wanting newer technology but why force it into equipment which is shaped the way it is for historic reasons? Just build a new camera with everything that can be shoehorned into it, but leave the M and its lenses along to remain a quirky and simple camera. Is this too much to ask or are we going to end up with an unusably small, M form camera bristling with features which are hard to control because there isn't the room to fit all the controls they need?

[evikne]

I don't care about IBIS as long as I can shoot at a relatively low resolution (either fixed or variable). The rangefinder is more important; it is the heart of the M. The soul is in the legacy.

[charlesphoto99]

2 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

No, it's not about "the fine art of holding and using a camera," as some "daddys" would want us believe. It's about the desire to go beyond the limits imposed on us by outdated technology.

IBIS, making your handheld, magenta tinted, shots now even sharper...

Sometimes limits are actually a good thing as it forces one to think and work outside of them to create something visually unique...

But personally, I'm waiting for the M16 with Chat GPT built in. Just talk to your Leica as it sits in a vitrine on the shelf. No pesky risk of scratching the body or dust on the sensor, no risking loss of resale value. No need to ever send in to calibrate the rangefinder. Macro? Long telephoto? No problem, it's got you covered. Perfectly sealed for even underwater photography. 100% zone focus coverage, all of the time, and no problem focusing a moving subject wide open at f/.95. Of course uber expensive lens, boutique leather half case, strap, thumb thingy for the hot shoe, engraved shutter release thingy, and Italian leather bag all still requirements for it to work. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

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vor 23 Minuten schrieb pgk:

Is this too much to ask or are we going to end up with an unusably small, M form camera bristling with features which are hard to control because there isn't the room to fit all the controls they need?

You did'nt get the point. Of course you can still ask for aged technology that imposes limits, if you see that as a challenge. That was the reason why I bought an M9 beside the Sony A1. But if you (or @DadDadDaddyo) claim, that today's photographers are simply not able to hold a camera as previous generations did, then you are wrong.

vor 8 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99:

IBIS, making your handheld, magenta tinted, shots now even sharper...

I am sure, it does.

Edited February 8 by 3D-Kraft.com

[pgk]

40 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Of course you can still ask for aged technology that imposes limits, if you see that as a challenge.

Its not a challenge or are there limits if you work within the camera's operating envelope, its merely taking photos the same way as previously. My M9s probably represents outdated technology to some people, but for me they continue to fulfil the role they were bought for, work as well as they did, and in the same way as when they were new. The problem people seem to have with M cameras is that they are used to seeing other cameras with different form factors and with lenses which transfer data to the camera, and they want the M to be like these; with all mad cons. And it can't be like other cameras without radical redesign, and if it was to be radically redesigned to operate numerous advances then there is no need to confine it to the shape of the M which is ergonomically 'old technology' shape. 

[IkarusJohn]

So, what happens if Leica re-designs the M system to deal with its shortcomings?

• EVF, so you can accurately frame, focus and use lenses longer than 50 and wider than 28?
• video (come on, it’s been available since the CMOS sensor)
• IBIS
• AF (Leica invented it)
• better battery
• compatible with M lenses (and more)
• more MP

All and more in the SL.  Seriously.  All this stuff people want is already available, but is it as good as a Sony?

M11 owners seem to almost universally love their cameras, but boy those “necessary” improvements of permanent live view, 61MP, cropping, variable file sizes came at a massive cost.  My SL(601) bricked in the first month, and Leica replaced it immediately.  It has been bulletproof proof since.  That camera, designed to take all the things people “needed” was the most resolved Leica on launch (despite my initial experience).

I have no issue with technological improvements - best shutter, best sensor, best RF, improved battery, even losing the baseplate and providing internal memory.  All good, provided it works … but be careful what you wish for.  The M system is extremely constrained in focal length and manual everything.  It is a limited system by design.

Try to match what Sony or Fuji are offering, and suddenly an M will look like an expensive camera that is just nowhere near as good as a Sony.

 

[Smogg]

18 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, what happens if Leica re-designs the M system to deal with its shortcomings?

• EVF, so you can accurately frame, focus and use lenses longer than 50 and wider than 28?
• video (come on, it’s been available since the CMOS sensor)
• IBIS
• AF (Leica invented it)
• better battery
• compatible with M lenses (and more)
• more MP

All and more in the SL.  Seriously.  All this stuff people want is already available, but is it as good as a Sony?

M11 owners seem to almost universally love their cameras, but boy those “necessary” improvements of permanent live view, 61MP, cropping, variable file sizes came at a massive cost.  My SL(601) bricked in the first month, and Leica replaced it immediately.  It has been bulletproof proof since.  That camera, designed to take all the things people “needed” was the most resolved Leica on launch (despite my initial experience).

I have no issue with technological improvements - best shutter, best sensor, best RF, improved battery, even losing the baseplate and providing internal memory.  All good, provided it works … but be careful what you wish for.  The M system is extremely constrained in focal length and manual everything.  It is a limited system by design.

Try to match what Sony or Fuji are offering, and suddenly an M will look like an expensive camera that is just nowhere near as good as a Sony.

 

It seems like a lot of people want the Leica M to be the full-frame version of the Fuji X-E4.

The next step will be 1kg M-mount zooms?😂

Edited February 8 by Smogg

[Crem]

13 minutes ago, Smogg said:

It seems like a lot of people want the Leica M to be the full-frame version of the Fuji X-E4.

The next step will be 1kg M-mount zooms?😂

Leica needs to make a EVF M with a lot of the tech features found in the Sony A7CR, but obviously with the luxury and polish of the SL3 and M lens compatibility of the M11. Call it the M12. Then hopefully they make a M12-C for "classic" without all the crap. Then these threads can die a good death 😂

Edited February 8 by Crem

[lct]

Not sure what AF and luxus have to do with image stabilization...

[Smogg]

9 minutes ago, Crem said:

Leica needs to make a EVF M with a lot of the tech features found in the Sony A7CR, but obviously with the luxury and polish of the SL3 and M lens compatibility of the M11. Then these threads can die a good death 😂

They also need to add a grip and move the viewfinder to the center😂

[jpark114]

33 minutes ago, Crem said:

Leica needs to make a EVF M with a lot of the tech features found in the Sony A7CR, but obviously with the luxury and polish of the SL3 and M lens compatibility of the M11. Call it the M12. Then hopefully they make a M12-C for "classic" without all the crap. Then these threads can die a good death 😂

No.  "M12" for classic people.  You people wanting EVF should get "M12-EVF". 😄

[SrMi]

Leica Rumors predicted today the launch of an M-EVF in 2025. That model is not M12.

[lct]

Just now, SrMi said:

Leica Rumors predicted today the launch of an M-EVF in 2025. That model is not M12.

Do you think the lack of RF could leave enough space for IBIS in spite of the EVF-M (or M-EVF) keeping a mechanical shutter?

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

Do you think the lack of RF could leave enough space for IBIS in spite of the EVF-M (or M-EVF) keeping a mechanical shutter?

I do not know.

[jpark114]

9 minutes ago, lct said:

Do you think the lack of RF could leave enough space for IBIS in spite of the EVF-M (or M-EVF) keeping a mechanical shutter?

But if Leica is willing to introduce an entirely new line of product with EVF, albeit one similar to traditional M digitals, they may decide to go little bit more out of box.

Perhaps different form factor?  Stacked sensor + IBIS with no mechanical shutter?

[Smudgerer]

For most of this really long thread I couldn't figure out why so many of you would want to have one of these on your next  M's, seemd a bit stupid to be honest......Now I get it, but it's not for me.

 

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[SrMi]

Just now, jpark114 said:

But if Leica is willing to introduce an entirely new line of product with EVF, albeit one similar to traditional M digitals, they may decide to go little bit more out of box.

Perhaps different form factor?  Stacked sensor + IBIS with no mechanical shutter?

Or maybe make it a bit thicker, like M240?