Best Resolution? M10R+50mm f2 APO vs M11P+50mm f2 v5?

[m410]

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Happy New Year!

Currently I have a M10R with a 50mm f2 Summicron v5.  I am considering a change to pickup some resolution/detail when a 50mm focal length is best for my subject.  

My question is regarding which configuration will capture the best/most detail?  

1. Should I keep my M10R and switch to the current 50mm f2 APO Summicron?  OR keep my 50mm f2 Summicron v5 and switch to the current M11P?

2. Does anyone know a mathematical solution that might guide me to a decision?

3. Anyone have a personal experience with my question?

My single criteria is resolution or image detail.  I am not concerned with different lens speeds or weight.

Thanks for any guidance.

David

note: my other lenses are all Leica with focal lengths/apertures of 21mm f3.4, 28mm f2.8, 35mm f2, 90mm f4 and 135mm f4.

[LeicaR10]

M410,  To help you with ideas, I suggest you first consider the genres of photography that you frequently shoot and then think;  Will the added lens resolution REALLY going to make a difference in your photography?   The M10-R is an excellent camera, the color is probably only second best to the SL2-S.  It is also has very stable firmware and can create amazing photographs.  I shoot with both the M10-R and M11-P.  Both my clients and myself prefer the color from the M10-R.  The other aspect of the 50 Apo vs 50 Summicron v5 relative to resolution has been tested and results can be read on pay sites such as Reid Reviews.  Bottom line, there is not much to gain with the 50 Apo vs 50 Summicron v5.  Also, it is rumored a new 50 Apo Summicron is under development.  How much more resolving that lens will be, only the Leica elves know and they aren't saying a peep.  My experience with those lenses as I do landscape and human impressionist photography, either one works quite well and my clients cannot tell the difference;  but if you are making very large prints (4 ft x 6 ft) or larger you might see a difference in resolution.   Here are two links that might help guide you to a decision.  Personally, I would save your money on the 50 Apo and go on vacation instead.  Last, in my 45+ years of Leica photography, I would always tell my workshop clients, its not not the camera or lens that makes the difference, rather its the content of your photograph that makes the viewer; Stop, Look, Think and perhasp Feel something for that moment in time.    r/ Mark

50 Summicron Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=372&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

50 Apo Summicron Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=366&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

 

Edited January 10 by LeicaR10

[setuporg]

The 50 APO is so unique and awesome that you should sell everything, an arm and a leg, and go into debt if you have to, to get it and shoot with it and forget about math and anything else.

[LeicaR10]

Setuporg,  I like your sage advice best!   r/ Mark

[Deeetona]

Aren't we talking about things that a human eye cannot see anyway?

[setuporg]

4 minutes ago, Deeetona said:

Aren't we talking about things that a human eye cannot see anyway?

Yes, you cannot see the gaping hole in your budget when you buy any of those Leica things.  But you can see the lens and enjoy it!  You can also see the awesome images it makes.

Edited January 10 by setuporg

[Deeetona]

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Quoting Mark:

 

 Personally, I would save your money on the 50 Apo and go on vacation instead.  Last, in my 45+ years of Leica photography, I would always tell my workshop clients, its not not the camera or lens that makes the difference, rather its the content of your photograph that makes the viewer; Stop, Look, Think and perhasp Feel something for that moment in time.    r/ Mark

[Deeetona]

The OP has equipment that is really world class. It is not that he has a M8 with a damaged sensor and a fungus-y pre-war uncoated LTM Elmar.

Unless there is a very specific use case, e.g. extreme cropping/enlarging, "upgrading" lens or body will not make any difference.

Unless is it important to him that "something has been done". 

"Does anyone know a mathematical solution that might guide me to a decision?" - I am sure there is one, one that ends up with "your desired new setup has XYW higher this-and-that-parameter". 

And its a highly psychological thing - is there is an APO or AMG Summicron, it can bug you all day, if you "only" own a regular Summicron. Buying a "better" one can resolve a lot of tension in your head. Maybe that also leads to making better photos.

Edited January 10 by Deeetona

[jgeenen]

Technical data and real world tests show, that the APO lens is clearly better in resolution and contrast than the standard Summicron. This differences are already visible at 24 MPix, as many of the common lens discussion sites show. the sensor is placed behind the lens. It records what the lens delivers, it cannot recreate lost information or repair lens issues. 

The answer to your question therefore is easy and does not require any math: if you want the finest resolution of details, get the APO Summicron. 

 

[01af]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb m410:

Should I keep my M10-R and switch to the current Apo-Summicron-M 50 mm Asph?  Or keep my Summicron-M 50 mm v5 and switch to the current M11-P?

I am pretty sure the better lens will make a greater difference.

[Essummi]

How about testing the Voigtländer 50mm Apo-Lanthar ? It is (at least almost) as good as the Leica 50mm Apo and would show what an APO can do. Alternatively: the small and lightweight Leica 35mm Apo.

[Essummi]

PS: I also think that Apo has a bigger effect than the extra megapixels of the M11

[jankap]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb m410:

2. Does anyone know a mathematical solution that might guide me to a decision?

At the start screen of the LUF you find the switch LeicaWiki with the technical data.

ApoSummicronM50Asph

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Summicron50

[Deeetona]

Print those graphs and pull them out when meeting other photographers, just to make a point.

Use "sagittal structures" a lot in your conversation.

EDIT:
You can do that even without buying such an expensive lens. Frighten other Leica photographers and ask them about sagittal and tangential structures of their pedestrian non-APO non-ASPH Summicrons. Frighten them!

Don't forget to pick up the tab for the next round of drinks, as you are then clearly the head honcho in that group. Man up!

Addendum:

There might be some smartass in the group who quips "But the pre-APO Summicron is of Mandler design blablabla". Sucker punch that guy and carry on holding court. Who was that Mandler Shmandler guy anyway.

So, just like "comparing" a 911 RS and 911 Turbo S and 911 Whatever S, it is an exercise with so many variables that the real-life relevance (beyond playing middle aged men's version of "Top Trumps") is almost nil, based on the assumption that 99% of photos are going to be looked at on a device screen where sagittal structures don't matter much.  

 

 

TL, DR: If you want to be the biggest guy in your local photo gang, buy the APO. It will remove all "what if" doubts. Your photo output is likely not going to change a bit.

Edited January 10 by Deeetona

[jps1]

In my case, I went from Summicron to APO.

The Summicron does not have floating lenses to correct focus.

My Summicron had a hole between f:2.8 and f:8, it was less good at f:4 and f:5.6.

The APO remains constant regardless of the opening.

[dugby]

9 hours ago, setuporg said:

The 50 APO is so unique and awesome that you should sell everything, an arm and a leg, and go into debt if you have to, to get it and shoot with it and forget about math and anything else.

Totally agree here.

When I review my APO-Summicron-M 50mm / M10-R images,  my heart flutters with delight every time I see the images on my 30” 4K monitor. There’s something alluring to the images that words cannot really do justice. They justify having the 50APO on an M10-R…… if that makes sense.
 

I just feel relieved that I used the 50 APO as my daily go to lens, rather than my two Lux’s (35FLE 50FLE)

The 50 APO is my must have lens that will never leave my collection.

[mustafasoleiman]

I have an M11 and both the 50 APO and 50 v.4 (which is the same lens as the v.5).

The APO is definitely a more refined lens both in terms of image quality and handling, the v.4 is close behind.

With regards to M11 v M10r: the M11 is a much better camera for its battery, less weight (black version), and other improvements (alas not everybody like them) AND more resolution...

I would go for the M11 and the 50 v.5.

Whether you should spend your money is really your business...

 

A

 

[250swb]

It would be nice for a change to have somebody address the lens question with an aesthetic appreciation and leaning rather than a blunt force trauma. Resolution is something, but it isn't everything. 

Edited January 10 by 250swb

[evikne]

The lens comes first in the recording chain. The camera, which comes after, can only degrade, not improve (but the better it is, the less it degrades).

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[setuporg]

Sure, it's all about the art, just go take pictures.  And not about GAS, right.

All true!  With two exceptions.  TWO.

Go take pictures with the 35 APO and 50 APO.  You'll feel so much better.  The art will practically make itself.  GAS doesn't even apply to what you MUST have -- the 35 APO, 50 APO, air, water, the sea, and the colors of the Fall. If all the world is falling into the abyss, if you're escaping Afghanistan or LA, take along your kids, spouse, pets, and clutch the 35 APO and 50 APO.

It doesn't matter what camera you use to take pictures, all what matters is your artistic judgment, and any camera will do so long as it has the M mount and sports either a 35 APO or 50 APO.

Edited January 10 by setuporg