What to buy at same price? M11 or M10R?

[algrove]

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I have had 4 M11 variants and one freeze amongst them all. That is WAY less than the freezers I had with 4 M10 variants.

Now the latest FW upgrade is out and t time will tell if many less freezes are reported using that FW.

[jpark114]

I've went through three variations of M11, M11 original, M11-P and M11M.  My experience with M11 original was horrible, and despite numerous firmware update ranging up to 2.0.1, I eventually got rid of one.  

However, my recently acquired M11-P and M11M are working perfectly fine.  When I sold the M11, I was like never to look back at Leica digital again believing Leica's reputation was for  Analog M only and they never meant for digital (I do have two M-As & M6 reissue all of which are perfect).  Went back to my old Sony and Canon which I saved for my field landscape shots.. but I was unable to stop thinking about my digital rangefinder experience.  The M11 was just so perfect for cityscape/street photography and edc camera despite the issue.

So, after hearing about the latest firmware which appeared to finally fix the issue, I went ahead and pruchased M11-P, and eventuallyM11M.  They are working perfectly fine, and zero freeze since the day one for both.  

Anyhow, I still believe the early batch of M11 had hardware problem in addition to firmware.  My M11 was one of the early one, and one of the newer one my friend had were experiencing much less freezes (same SD card, and we tested with the same set of lens).  So I'd be careful and check on used M11's manufacturing date.  

Edited January 7 by jpark114

[setuporg]

36 minutes ago, algrove said:

I have had 4 M11 variants and one freeze amongst them all. That is WAY less than the freezers I had with 4 M10 variants.

Now the latest FW upgrade is out and t time will tell if many less freezes are reported using that FW.

You bring luck and people should invite you to weddings and stock trades!

[setuporg]

27 minutes ago, jpark114 said:

...

Anyhow, I still believe the early batch of M11 had hardware problem in addition to firmware.  My M11 was one of the early one, and one of the newer one my friend had were experiencing much less freezes (same SD card, and we tested with the same set of lens).  So I'd be careful and check on used M11's manufacturing date.  

M11-P had freezes and M11-D failed completely with SSD lost, and freezing before.  Survival bias does not obviate the persistent problems nor will explain them away by production date.  Reasonable, but still wishful thinking.  Leica doesn't know and nobody knows.  Just doesn't happen with M9/M240/M10-R, and hopefully won't happen with the M12.

[Ray Harrison]

The M11 represented a reasonably large shift in the internals of the M bodies, including all-sensor exposure and therefore white-balance readings, internal storage, and a number of other things. That's not meant as an excuse for Leica, far from it, but the M12 will (had better?) have some of those learnings incorporated in the design, I feel, and because as an engineer myself, that's a typical way forward. You know more the next time around. It should be better, with fewer issues. Or at least the same issues 😀. I don't have freezes to speak of, no storage loss, and so forth. Obviously, these things have happened to others, sadly. I've been on the other side of the fence in other scenarios myself and it's not fun.

I've enjoyed my 2+ years with the M11.  

As for advice: Be wary of abnormally low prices, no sales receipts, no warranty, no ability to get your money back, and so forth. I like the M11, I've not had an M10-series. The M11 is a nice camera and is probably a transitional system - as noted above, it's the first of a new set of hardware. 

Edited January 7 by Ray Harrison

[algrove]

My M10R had freeze issues and that's why I was happy when the M11 came out. For some reason m y M11 never froze up even though it was purchased on day one of the M11 launch.

[hdmesa]

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On 1/5/2025 at 4:44 PM, Goizueta said:

I met a person who sells it unbranded. I have an appointment with him this week to make the purchase. I hope it's not a hoax. (It's too tight a price)🤞🤞

This is how you get featured on the unsolved murder mystery shows.

[Tseg]

14 hours ago, Ray Harrison said:

That's not meant as an excuse for Leica, far from it, but the M12 will (had better?) have some of those learnings incorporated in the design, I feel, and because as an engineer myself, that's a typical way forward.

With rumors of a hybrid viewfinder and who-knows-what-else in the M12, I’m sure there will be new, additional tech that will need to mature.  Some already accuse the M11 of having so much tech it is departing from the Leica ethos.   I think Leica has some very interesting challenges ahead as it sorts out its long term vision of what it will be.

[JNK100]

1 hour ago, Tseg said:

With rumors of a hybrid viewfinder and who-knows-what-else in the M12, I’m sure there will be new, additional tech that will need to mature.  Some already accuse the M11 of having so much tech it is departing from the Leica ethos.   I think Leica has some very interesting challenges ahead as it sorts out its long term vision of what it will be.

I would be amazed if Leica added a hybrid viewfinder to the M. Leica themselves have stated it is not possible.

Also, it would no longer be an M of course.

[fiatlux]

On 1/4/2025 at 4:25 PM, Goizueta said:

I have the opportunity to buy a new m11 for 6000e. 

May I ask you where you can get such good deals? Used M11 sometimes go as low, or even lower than 6000€ but most of them are closer to 6500-7000€. New ones are usually at the full 8750€ price, at least from local brick&mortar shops. I just read your intervention above. I hope you did not scammed or worse 😕 

I have an M10 which I am very happy with but after many years of ownership, GAS is striking back and I have been tempted to go for a lightly used, locally available M11 @ 6000€ (from a reputable pro shop). I think I might get around 4000€ for my M10 (with EVF and second battery), so upgrading for 2k€ seemed like a decent deal. The M11 battery was not sufficiently charged when I tested it so I could not fully verify its correct operation but could already notice that the vertical RF alignment could do with a tuning. I decided to take a bit of time of reflection. Reading this forum I realise that the RF alignment is rather easy to fix (never did it on my previous Ms) but that the opinions about the M11 are really divided.

I don't really see myself buying a new M12 when/if it comes out. I bought my M10 new but thought this was a bit extravagant, and all my other Leica purchases (M8, M9, M246, Q2M, many M lenses) were used and I have been pretty lucky so far. 

Edited January 8 by fiatlux

[fiatlux]

18 hours ago, setuporg said:

M11-P had freezes and M11-D failed completely with SSD lost, and freezing before.  Survival bias does not obviate the persistent problems nor will explain them away by production date.  Reasonable, but still wishful thinking.  Leica doesn't know and nobody knows.  Just doesn't happen with M9/M240/M10-R, and hopefully won't happen with the M12.

I actually had most problems with my M9 - freezes which resulted in SD card corruption. Luckily the SD card content could always be retrieved with recovery software but it meant I had to travel with many spare cards and keep the corrupted ones safely away for later recovery. Not a stress-free experience when traveling the world 😉, even if I found a way to almost eliminate the risk of freezes (on the M9): disable image review and wait for an image to be saved before taking the next one (easier said than done).

[algrove]

That's the internet.

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, _tc said:

I'm probably buying the M12 when it's launched but I won't be selling my M11 since I fully expect gremlins.

Everyone is sharing anecdotes and that's fine but the plural of anecdote is not evidence. I do not mean to dismiss freezing issues, we all know they're real, and we can speculate that they are more commonly occuring than M10 freezes, and we can even gather that that's pretty likely. But people are making some awfully strong statements that are too much without knowing actually warranty info from Leica.

It's the same with every M generation launch. Massive discussions about freezing, color being off, bricking, miscellaneous glitches, etc. It's easy now to see the M9/240/10 through rose colored glasses because they're mature products with final firmware except for the occasional compatibility update. The M11 is finally there, but too many still think of that swirling chaos of freezing from the last two years when they hear about it. What was different about the M11 was the extended freezing timeframe compared to previous models before it was solved, as well as continued reports of defective units still being made. These two things I attribute at least in part to the post-COVID supply chain disruption, which Leica had a harder time navigating due to its smaller size as a company and reliance on third party parts suppliers.

[harmen]

On 1/8/2025 at 2:47 AM, jpark114 said:

Anyhow, I still believe the early batch of M11 had hardware problem in addition to firmware.

Great to hear that you’ve had good success with the M11 recently.  I just want to add on that this belief about hardware is likely just a belief.  From my sample size of one, I can share that the first M11 that was available in the country has been serving me very well.  Yes, it had some freezes with previous firmware versions - about as many as my M Type 240 had - but none since the latest version.

[harmen]

On 1/6/2025 at 5:28 AM, FarbSpieler said:

In my subjective view, it’s too busy with features and lacks the purity and simplicity of the M10 series. I feel it's more of a transitional model. Hopefully, with the M12, they’ll purify the design, remove unnecessary features, and return to the basics of photography.

If I may add a different subjective view, I would pose that the M11 is purer than ever.  It is possible to pick an aperture, focus, frame, and shoot, without having to bother about anything else.  The camera really gets out of the way and leaves me to control just those parts that matter.  Everything regarding recording the light is no longer a concern: the dynamic range is superb, high ISO is excellent, the electronic shutter makes shooting wide open in bright light possible, and the light meter prevents over-exposure.  I just need to work on aperture, frame, and focus.

I also enjoy using film and a handheld light meter with the M-A.  Nonetheless, I never felt compelled to set a fixed ISO and manually manage shutter speed with my M11, even though that’s possible.  But, I would stop calling it an M and not be interested anymore if:

• You take away the manual focus - preferably with the rangefinder’s overlapping images.  I don’t mind focus peaking on the Q, but it’s not the same.
• I can’t see outside the frame through the viewfinder.  I don’t want to look through a tunnel.
• Aperture is not controlled by me.  The iPhone’s fake depth of field control is not it.

[algrove]

8 hours ago, harmen said:

Great to hear that you’ve had good success with the M11 recently.  I just want to add on that this belief about hardware is likely just a belief.  From my sample size of one, I can share that the first M11 that was available in the country has been serving me very well.  Yes, it had some freezes with previous firmware versions - about as many as my M Type 240 had - but none since the latest version.

Similar experience myself. Although my sample size was 2 M11 as I regularly use 2 bodies. Never one freeze up and first camera was sold on day one of launch.

[lct]

As @harmen wrote above, my early M11 "had some freezes with previous firmware versions - about as many as my M Type 240 had - but none since the latest version." I would just add that choosing M11 vs M10 is less a matter of freeze or sensor than starwars vs jurassic park so to speak 😉Just kidding but the M11 is both a rangefinder and a mirrorless camera. This brings new capabilities but also complexities the OP may dislike if he is after a digital M3. Otherwise, the M11 may become his favorite M body the same way as it is for this old M3 and mirrorless user. I would try the M11 before deciding anyway.

[jakontil]

i am back with the M11, i am still a great admirer of the M10 series, especially M10r… and i had the black paint, but M11 has been rock solid as of late.. and that too comes in black paint.. 

[satijntje]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jakontil:

i am back with the M11, i am still a great admirer of the M10 series, especially M10r… and i had the black paint, but M11 has been rock solid as of late.. and that too comes in black paint.. 

No more freezes on the M11 with there latest Firmware?

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[jakontil]

1 hour ago, satijntje said:

No more freezes on the M11 with there latest Firmware?

I have no freeze so far under shooting situations.. sometimes i shot rapidly too.. the only freeze i encountered was when transfering raw through wifi while shooting at the same time but that was some time ago, but i couldn’t replicate it now.. 

reason why i stood by my m10r back then was it bcoz it was so reliable, but now the m11 gave me the same feeling, finally