M11-D completely bricked

[username]

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All due respect @LocalHero1953 but I'd rather stay on the subject of Leica M11's and not discuss life strategies if that's alright with you.

 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jdlaing]

12 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Who will be the first to write "user error"?

You were.

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, username said:

 

All due respect @LocalHero1953 but I'd rather stay on the subject of Leica M11's and not discuss life strategies if that's alright with you.

 

🙂

Edited December 13, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Velo-city]

15 hours ago, username said:

..the best of this video being the fact that they returned his M10 to him in a faulty state, then told him he has to send it in again and wait some more months for them to this time actually install the proper firmware - and he then drove from GB to Wetzlar himself, and only then they fixed it right away.

Pardon my french, but what the fuck???

I saw that video.  What a joke.

But he's a 'proper' Leica customer I guess - ie loves his camera so much he essentially lets them off by flying overseas and then driving to another country to help them fix their mistake!  And makes a vaguely positive video about it.

What other brand would make you wait 4 months for a job, and then when not done correctly give you the choice of waiting another 3-4 months or having to personally travel overseas to get it that day! I mean, why couldn't they just courier it back there and do it in a day as any reasonable company that made a mistake would.  They don't even seem that embarrassed about it, or their wait times.  Admittedly this wasn't a repair, but it's no different in terms of time.

Poor them, sold so many 'hand made' cameras some of which dont work properly, and they're making so much money, they can't keep up with the repair demand.  

Only 45 technicians. I bet they've got more than 45 people in their marketing and accounts depts.

Hopefully it encourages the OP to return the camera. He'd still be within his rights in most countries at this point.  I'd be running back.

[fotografr]

21 hours ago, Crem said:

I had lots of freezing with my M11, but it never bricked. Full resets (erasing all settings and starting over with setup) never helped my problems. I sold mine before the new firmware came out that probably fixed many of the freezes that plagued this camera.

 

This is why I don't like to buy used cameras unless I get some kind of warranty. I always wonder if the reason the person is selling is that something isn't right with the camera.

[username]

18 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Leica is a small company with 1% camera market share after all, their service cannot be on par with Canon and their CPS or similar

I keep thinking about this statement of yours, and to be honest I'm still having a hard time following that logic.
Yes, Leica is tiny compared to Canon or Nikon, but they also sell only a fraction of cameras.
Apparently Leica cameras do have a lot more issues though, so they need to be repaired a lot more often 💁‍♂️

What it comes down to at the end of the day though is: wait times of several months / up to a year with analog M's are just nuts -
and I really can't see why it shouldn't be possible to bring those times down significantly by employing / training more precision mechanics etc.
Even if it really does take three years to properly train somebody to do the most delicate of jobs it must be possible to employ some people to help quickly repair the more basic stuff, reducing the load on the more experienced staff?
I'm sure I must be missing something, but looking a Leica's job offerings on their site I don't even see open positions for precision mechanics etc.
And while they may not be as backed up finacially as Hasselblad is by DJI I'm sure they could afford to employ twice as many technicians as they currently do given their record revenues.
Maybe do it in Canada if money is tight? 🙂

[JNK100]

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1 hour ago, username said:

I keep thinking about this statement of yours, and to be honest I'm still having a hard time following that logic.
Yes, Leica is tiny compared to Canon or Nikon, but they also sell only a fraction of cameras.
Apparently Leica cameras do have a lot more issues though, so they need to be repaired a lot more often 💁‍♂️

What it comes down to at the end of the day though is: wait times of several months / up to a year with analog M's are just nuts -
and I really can't see why it shouldn't be possible to bring those times down significantly by employing / training more precision mechanics etc.
Even if it really does take three years to properly train somebody to do the most delicate of jobs it must be possible to employ some people to help quickly repair the more basic stuff, reducing the load on the more experienced staff?
I'm sure I must be missing something, but looking a Leica's job offerings on their site I don't even see open positions for precision mechanics etc.
And while they may not be as backed up finacially as Hasselblad is by DJI I'm sure they could afford to employ twice as many technicians as they currently do given their record revenues.
Maybe do it in Canada if money is tight? 🙂

I think some people are confusing revenue with net profit.

On 12/12/2024 at 3:36 PM, M11 for me said:

I had 6 newly released Leica cameras over the past 10 years. They all worked fully fine. At the moment I still own an M11 and a Q3. Both are great and cause no problem whatsoever. And they never did. 

When you say that a new Leica camera is a risk then this is not my experience.

I agree. I have had a number of Leicas all without any issues.

[username]

10 minutes ago, JNK100 said:

I think some people are confusing revenue with net profit.

Would you agree that it is safe to say the company is doing really well, and could probably hire more staff to solve their embarassingly long service times?

[pedaes]

6 minutes ago, username said:

Would you agree that it is safe to say the company is doing really well, and could probably hire more staff to solve their embarassingly long service times?

How is it "safe to say"? When a company talks revenue it tells us nothing about their investment ability. Leica has huge debt from the Wetzlar development.

Leica today is what it is, and all the issues you find unacceptable are known and transparent. Many of us love the cameras/lenses and have no quality issues, and in any event the joy of using far outweighs any niggles that would deter future purchase. If you ever visit Leica you will find it full of great people passionate about the products and their history.

Only when you have used a M11 series for some time will you fully appreciate its qualities .

None of this means it is the right camera company for you......

 

[marchyman]

6 hours ago, Velo-city said:

I bet they've got more than 45 people in their marketing and accounts depts.

I bet it doesn't take 3 years to train their marketing and accounting employees before they become productive.

I'll leave the discussion as to why it takes 3 years to others.

[Crem]

3 hours ago, fotografr said:

This is why I don't like to buy used cameras unless I get some kind of warranty. I always wonder if the reason the person is selling is that something isn't right with the camera.

I would never recommend anyone buy a used M11 back then. With the latest firmware I'm sure it's a much different situation. I dealt with a lot of firmware bugs (random huge overexposures like I've never seen on a M10-R, lockup requiring a battery pull every say 1000 images, being told things like "try a different brand of SD card", but not being told which specific cards are certified to work, etc. I really suspect it's all worked out based on following the forums. Or at least 95% of it.

[username]

29 minutes ago, pedaes said:

How is it "safe to say"?

A small portion from their site (linked on top of page 2 of this thread) -

The Leica Camera Group registers another new revenue record for the fiscal year 2023/2024. With a renewed increase in revenue of 14% to MEUR 554 against the previous year’s figure of MEUR 485, the premium-segment manufacturer of optical products was able to further build on the successful course pursued in the previous fiscal year and successfully sustain the growth of its operating earnings. 

..does lead me to believe that they could most likely afford to hire more staff to help reduce repair times.

You know what, even if I did go ahead this year and bought a M11 plus lens, or say I actually bought two, for good measure - and they were both working perfectly fine - I still would acknowledge that some things, namely the firmware shitshow and the repair times, really do suck. 
It's quite possible to love the cameras and lenses and be passionate about it all etc. - but at the same time have a grip on reality and admit when some things are just not ok at all.
Maybe for you it's just some "niggles", but tell that to the many people who have issues and actually need a working camera.

Anyway, repeating myself here, and let's face it - even if repair times increase to two years you'd still shrug it off and tell people "well the issues are transprarent, Leica is what it is now".

[pedaes]

39 minutes ago, username said:

the firmware shitshow and the repair times, really do suck.

I suspect Leica wished they were better!! As do we all.

I see you joined the Forum in 2018, so if you wait another six years before jumping things may have improved.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, username said:

does lead me to believe that they could most likely afford to hire more staff to help reduce repair times.

 

They could - and would - if there were staff available to hire... The bane of European businesses at the moment . Today only one dental nurse in the practice instead of four, there was no receptionist. Staff shortage despite desperate attempts to hire over the last couple of years...😪

[DadDadDaddyo]

On 12/12/2024 at 8:05 AM, pgh said:

"Any time one buys a newly released camera this is a risk."

...fixed

[T25UFO]

All this talk about Leica revenues makes me smile.  To put this into perspective Nikon Corporation invested €470 million in R&D this year.  That’s almost as much as Leica’s total revenue, but most of us would still prefer to buy Leica products.

[pgh]

8 minutes ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

...fixed

No. You didn't fix it. I said what I said. I guess it depends on what you qualify as a risk, and yes, new cameras may sometimes have tiny flaws but Leica are in a much different ballpark than the Japanese camera brands with their out of the gate significant issues - hell, they're different than even Hasselblad, which has every right to be worse here but in my experience is decidedly not.

[username]

52 minutes ago, pedaes said:

I suspect Leica wished they were better

My whole point being they could be better if they wanted to 🙂

It's not rocket science, these are not unsolvable problems.

 

Quote

I see you joined the Forum in 2018, so if you wait another six years before jumping things may have improved.

I did figure out where to find the ignore function of this forum in those six years, and making use of it now.

Have a great day, and happy shooting ✌️

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[username]

32 minutes ago, jaapv said:

They could - and would - if there were staff available to hire... The bane of European businesses at the moment .

..hmm, I kinda doubt that's really the issue here.

As far as I know (several of my friends are teachers in various kinds of schools) apprenticeships (part of the dual education system in Germany) are still quite attractive, especially with a prestigious employer like Leica. I mean that's basically one of the most attractive employers in the country when it comes to industrial mechanics, electronic engineering etc.      
I did have a look on their career sites actually as mentioned earlier, but see no vacant offerings in that area (neither apprenticeships nor jobs for fully qualified employees).

Also - haven't they outsourced repair jobs in the past? I jokingly said earlier they could do it in Canada.. surely ther must be options (if they wanted to)?

Probably also doesn't help the situation that they apparently don't supply parts to 3rd party technicians any more. 💁‍♂️

[jaapv]

23 minutes ago, username said:

Also - haven't they outsourced repair jobs in the past? I jokingly said earlier they could do it in Canada.. surely ther must be options (if they wanted to)?

Not outsourced but in the past but Leitz Canada did have a repair department when it still existed (It was purchased by Hughes Aircraft and the optical department was sold to Raytheon later), like Leitz Portugal does repairs on sports optics. There is Leica USA in New Jersey. Some importers do have primary repair centers for small and quick stuff, like Leica Mayfair London and Transcontinenta in the Netherlands, also in the Far East.
Yes, Leica does take part in the German training system with Azubis etc. However, it takes  years to fully train a technician, you won't find them on the open market, so advertising for them is rather useless. On top of that the present group has an age drain. It will take time to resolve the situation, but don't think that Leica is unaware of it.

The reason that they don't supply parts is that most if not all independents feel that digital bodies are beyond them or of no interest. There seems to be one in the UK though who will take on digitals. Another problem is that Leica must calculate the number of parts needed over at least ten years as they are produced by giant corporations in the far east and unavailable in a short span of time. ( we have seen some nasty examples like M8.2 LCDs for instance) and they cannot afford to have an uncontrollable drain by selling to third parties.

The short answer is that Leica is too large to be able to avoid outside staffing trends but too small to control them...