Why I love and hate the Leica M

[thrid]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I remember week one with my first M camera.

It was a M6ttl, which I paid about $2400 for in the mid 90's, which at that point amounted to all of my savings.

The first afternoon with it was horrifying. Rangefinder focusing was totally new to me and I was all thumbs, seemingly unable to get the side of a barn in focus. And then there was the infamous M6 patch flare, which made things even worse.

By the time I got home I was convinced that I had made a horrible mistake and just wasted every penny I had to my name.

Luckily, I got some help from an old Hungarian photographer who worked at the local camera store (remember those?). He had been a photojournalist in a former life and had started out shooting LTM bodies, behind the Iron Curtain.

He showed me how to scale / zone focus and told me to pre set my focus in anticipation of where the subject will be and a few other tricks.

The best piece of advice he gave me was regarding the basic nature of M photography.

He compared Leica M photography to a quick charcoal sketch, not a finely detailed rendering. It's a reportage camera designed to capture fleeting moments in all their messy rawness. He told me to buy an SLR, if I wanted total control and accuracy. Different tools for different jobs. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[tom0511]

I think if you add all the stuff the op is asking for...he would better just use a SL3 and AF lenses.

A M is what it is, a manual focus rangefinder camera, which shines for me with wide lenses up to 50mm when using the rangefinder.

The focus for anything not still is tricky and therefore I also mostly prefer to use f2.0 - f5.6 range and I shoot not with super shallow DOF.

Therefore I also mostly dont need any Summiluxes or Noctiluxes but prefer the Summicrons.

 

[Dazzajl]

18 minutes ago, thrid said:

He compared Leica M photography to a quick charcoal sketch, not a finely detailed rendering. It's a reportage camera designed to capture fleeting moments in all their messy rawness

That's a beautiful description of shooting with the M. 

There is a very good reason that no other modern manufacturer makes a rangefinder now and it's because it's a pretty poor way to go about most of the business of photography. If you don't want to take the path less travelled, that's uphill, rough under foot and often not signed well, you probably don't really want an M

It can also teach you more about seeing and shooting than any other current camera, if you're of a mind to learn.

[LocalHero1953]

There shouldn't be a problem (with good experience) in shooting moving subjects with a M (perhaps not with a Noctilux close up). I used a Pentax MX (split image VF) and Leica M2 in parallel for about 20 years without thinking whether my subject was moving or not, and rarely using zone focusing. I didn't gain an AF camera till around 2000 (P&S Nikon digital compact IIRC).

Obviously, over those two decades I gained quite a bit of experience and muscle memory, plus tricks like approximate pre-focusing, waiting for the subject to move to where I had prefocused etc. But unless you're standing next to a race track trying to follow cars as they pass by, then keeping your fingers around the focus ring and continuously adjusting as the subject moves around doesn't require superpowers. I now use AF for almost all moving subjects, and my finger muscles have probably forgotten the knack, but those shooting M with rangefinder focusing all the time should have no problem.

Aside from my experience, I think we forget how photographers used manual focus for moving subjects for so long before AF came along.

[jaapv]

I wonder… Where do all those pre-AF action shots come from? 

[pgk]

3 hours ago, thrid said:

He compared Leica M photography to a quick charcoal sketch, not a finely detailed rendering. It's a reportage camera designed to capture fleeting moments in all their messy rawness. He told me to buy an SLR, if I wanted total control and accuracy. Different tools for different jobs. 

He was wrong. With wide-angle lenses the Leica M offers faster and more precise focussing than either an SLR or now EVF. Its all about understanding strengths and weaknesses, which I go on about at length. If you want a camera which works well outside of the Leica M envelope then buy something different; trying to amend a classic, excellent design to do other things will merely produce mediocrity. I have other cameras for shooting when the M is not suitable and surprsingly enough they work well and produce fine results. When I use an M I do so within its envelope and it too works well and produces fine images. The days when the M was the reportage camera of choice were over many decades ago. The M still has its place and its not in the past.

Edited December 2, 2024 by pgk

[Viv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 12/1/2024 at 5:54 AM, Altair said:

Be forewarned....this just probably the most useless post you will read this year, and perhaps stretching to the next. Nothing but the ramblings of someone new to M coming from an X2D and Z9 world. I highly recommend you spend your time more constructively somewhere else.

 

With that warning out of the way, I wanted to share my thoughts as a hobbyist who has started taking his photography more seriousely for the last year and exactly one week with an M.

 

I love the idea of an M. Just the right size, build quality is Swiss watches standard, and the pictures, when perfectly framed and just focus, are unmatched. Even compared to a X2D, there is something magical of what an M with the right lens can do. 

 

For me, what the Leica experience is at its very heart, is being able to walk around with a fairly manageable, enjoyable to see/feel/operate package with the capability of producing some of the most strikingly beautiful images possible. The insistence of Leica to adhere to the legacy of what M has always been adds to the charm of the camera. I liken the last bit to owning and enjoying a Fine fountain pen as compared to a commercial roller ball or a Vacheron Constantin wrist watch compared to a quartz Seiko watch. The Seiko and roller ball pen actually provide more accurate results far more consistently and are naturally far more affordable. But the beuty of the results and certainly the experience of ownership is a different world all together. Manually winding a fine watch is it's own pleasure compared to a set and forget quartz watch, so is manually focusing a range finder compared to auto everything Japanese alternatives.

 

As much as I appreciate the M11, and i certainly am glad I finally took the leap, I really do wish several key changes are done for the next iteration. Mainly a tilt screen ( doesn't ruin the legacy of M, done use it if you prefer contortionist photography) and I do wish Leica are investing in focus assurance tech that would somehow enable us to ensure a higher successfully shot ratio. My only problem with the M11 compared to my other cameras is that focusing takes a good amount of mental thought per shot, which is less time focusing on framing and composition. 

With that in mind, the X2D is the best camera in the world today. The lenses, especially the 55v and 90v, absolutely have the magic look, not quite as much as the best Leica lenses have but up there, and the added value of a tilt screen and autofocus make it a camera i can depend on when it matters. I used it for one day of street photography in London a few days back and used the M11 the day after. Fact of the matter is, the Hassleblad gave me the results, the Leica produced only one truly great image compared to over 30 with the X2D.

As it stands, the Hassleblad is the right tool for me produce results, the Leica is a luxury, which is great, but it can be so much more.

I really hope the M12 takes the lagacy of M and makes for a truly dependable modern camera that can take full advantage of legacy lenses. Just a tilt screen and the real challenge, groundbreaking focus peaking technology.

Sorry for the long winded post, I obviously feel strongly about this. To clarify, I do love my M and enjoy it tremendously and will continue to practice with and without the visoflex while I wait for the groundbreaking M12 

I have both the M11 and the X2D.

In my hands, the X2D consistently produces more accurate colour in the RAW files than the M11. The X2D ergonomics are just so right, as is the build quality.

I love both cameras, but I need to be in a specific mood to use the M11 rather than the X2D.

[spydrxx]

(don't take this seriously)😁

Monkey see, monkey do

Oooh – I like that photo, think I want to be a creative street photographer, need to get a Leica camera like I saw photographer had. That would surely guarantee my success right away! Besides, it is really neat retro looking.

Oooh – this is hard. I have to read user manual, learn how to set shutter speed, aperture, and worst of all actually learn how to focus when the actual printed picture may not match what I see thru the viewfinder, I mean viewfinder/rangefinder or whatever it’s called. Maybe I should get a fully automatic camera. Leica too hard to use. Must post my findings on social media!

[Viv]

On 12/1/2024 at 10:12 AM, pedaes said:

You certainly have!

Yes, but done what, exactly? Created a Q3?

[jaapv]

Well, he was clearly used to Zorkis, so he may have been right...

Not only rangefinder focusing - I had no trouble using manual lenses for wildlife and action, up to 560  mm, on my R series cameras. 

24 minutes ago, pgk said:

He was wrong. With wide-angle lenses the Leica M offer faster and more precise focussing than either an SLR or now and EVF. Its all about understanding strengths and weaknesses which I go on about at length. If you want a camera which works well outside of the Leica M envelope then buy something different, trying to amend a classic, excellent design to do other things will merely produce mediocrity. I have other cameras for shooting when the M is not suitable and surprsingly enough they work well and produce fine results. When I use an M I do so within its envelope and it too works well and produces fine images. The days when the M was the reportage camera of choice were over many decades ago. The M still has its place and its not in the past.

 

[Viv]

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, DigitalHeMan said:

May I offer some advice? Based upon your earlier posts here and on Reddit I know you're currently shooting with your Noctilux 50mm, and you're enjoying using it wide open. A fine lens certainly. But maybe to help you learn the rangefinder focus experience, start off by not shooting wide open. Try at f/2.8 until you're getting 90%+ in focus, then go to f/2 until you've achieved 90%=, f/1.4, and finally f/0.95. Practice will certainly make perfect in this case. Rangefinder focusing is a fast and accurate way of using a camera. once you've got the hang of it.....

This is good advice.

[tom0511]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb LocalHero1953:

There shouldn't be a problem (with good experience) in shooting moving subjects with a M (perhaps not with a Noctilux close up). I used a Pentax MX (split image VF) and Leica M2 in parallel for about 20 years without thinking whether my subject was moving or not, and rarely using zone focusing. I didn't gain an AF camera till around 2000 (P&S Nikon digital compact IIRC).

Obviously, over those two decades I gained quite a bit of experience and muscle memory, plus tricks like approximate pre-focusing, waiting for the subject to move to where I had prefocused etc. But unless you're standing next to a race track trying to follow cars as they pass by, then keeping your fingers around the focus ring and continuously adjusting as the subject moves around doesn't require superpowers. I now use AF for almost all moving subjects, and my finger muscles have probably forgotten the knack, but those shooting M with rangefinder focusing all the time should have no problem.

Aside from my experience, I think we forget how photographers used manual focus for moving subjects for so long before AF came along.

Yes, I have shot Leica M for over 30 years now. I also have used it for images of my kids when they were young etc. etc.

What I wanted to say is that there are other cameras and tools available if fast and super accurate focusing for lenses longer than 75mm is your thing.

For me strength of the M is the UWA to 50 mm range, spontanious shooting, OVF without blackout, compact, unobstrusive.

For sports, action or when I have to nail focus I rather use something else nowadays.

 

[tom0511]

I believe the camera to compare with the x2d would be the SL3 not the M.

 

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, pgk said:

One problem is that some people obviously equate cost with ease of use which in the case of Leica M cameras is patently incorrect.

 

This.

[anonymoose]

On 12/1/2024 at 1:17 AM, DigitalHeMan said:

May I offer some advice? Based upon your earlier posts here and on Reddit I know you're currently shooting with your Noctilux 50mm, and you're enjoying using it wide open. A fine lens certainly. But maybe to help you learn the rangefinder focus experience, start off by not shooting wide open. Try at f/2.8 until you're getting 90%+ in focus, then go to f/2 until you've achieved 90%=, f/1.4, and finally f/0.95. Practice will certainly make perfect in this case. Rangefinder focusing is a fast and accurate way of using a camera. once you've got the hang of it.....

As someone that started shooting M about a week ago, doing this has been very helpful to me. I think of higher apertures as training wheels that I can slowly take off and only shoot at f1.4 when I've got good light and plenty of time to get the shot (e.g. stationary scene, sleeping kid/dog, etc.).

Edited December 2, 2024 by anonymoose

[Velo-city]

There’s a handful of M users here that pretty much always assume anyone trying an M for the first time is a clueless technophobe, with zero creative or photography skills, who’s overwhelmed by the concepts of basics like shutter speed, aperture and focussing, and who’s opinions are meaningless as they haven’t been living and breathing Leica rangefinders since the 1950’s. Some of them haven’t even visited Leica HQ in Wetzlar!! The shame. 
The comments are often delivered in a rather snobbish, passive-aggressive, bullying and mean kind of way. It’s so often - ‘it’s not the camera it’s you’.

The thing is the M is an incredibly simple camera compared to literally anything else out there, and you don’t have to use it in manual mode at all if you don’t want to. So interaction can literally just be focussing. Certainly no one needs to read the manual to understand it.  Most intelligent people could work their way through it in several minutes bar a few weirdly implemented things in the menus that you don’t need for general picture taking. Frankly, most of the reading is trying to resolve what’s not working properly but I’ll ignore that here.

I also see plenty of digs about people wanting to be a YouTuber with an M. Well, a bit harsh but probably some truth in that. Leicas marketing and influencer teams are really pushing the cameras in those directions - presumably to try and generate sales from a younger crowd in ‘cooler’ circles like street photography, to make the M more relevant in 2024. So people are likely to see the M on YouTube, Instagram etc if they follow even a few photographers. The more people that use an M for the first time, the more feedback there will be, here and elsewhere. Not all will be positive or adhering to the accepted norms of longer-term users.  That feedback is important though - for Leica to evolve the camera and/or alter their marketing strategy if it doesn’t work for the bigger range of people they’re aiming it at.

Opinions from new users are also important as you’ll get a much different perspective than from someone who patiently waits for every new version to be released so they can add it to the collection and talk about it along the lines of how well the paint ages over time, and how close it is to the first film camera ever made. 

I actually found the rangefinder aspect fairly easy but then I’ve used one previously - albeit at a slower pace with film. But it’s not rocket science anyway. And while improving focus will no doubt take a long time, it doesn’t stop you building a pretty instant opinion of the camera in those first few sessions. Much of that is formed from how the camera works as a whole, which may not be as flattering as people would hope. 
 

IMO it’s maybe highlighting an opening for a new model in Leicas range, or a split-off of the M line. Pointing people towards the SL or Q lines instead of the M, as a way of having a better Leica experience for automated features probably misses the point. An SL is essentially a big mirrorless camera - I’d guess many people buying an M have used similar and are trying an M specifically to move away from that bulky system. A Q is more compact but still a very chunky fixed lens camera. There are many competing options from nearly all major manufacturers in both systems - most arguably offering far better technology, value and support. The M isn’t just about a pure rangefinder experience for many newer users, it’s also the compact size and lens choices.  Not everyone wants to give up everything for that, I think an interchangeable lens Q3 or more technically advanced M would suit many people - probably not the membership of this forum, but  outside the bubble.  

[evikne]

40 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

IMO it’s maybe highlighting an opening for a new model in Leicas range, or a split-off of the M line. Pointing people towards the SL or Q lines instead of the M, as a way of having a better Leica experience for automated features probably misses the point. An SL is essentially a big mirrorless camera - I’d guess many people buying an M have used similar and are trying an M specifically to move away from that bulky system. A Q is more compact but still a very chunky fixed lens camera. There are many competing options from nearly all major manufacturers in both systems - most arguably offering far better technology, value and support. The M isn’t just about a pure rangefinder experience for many newer users, it’s also the compact size and lens choices.  Not everyone wants to give up everything for that, I think an interchangeable lens Q3 or more technically advanced M would suit many people - probably not the membership of this forum, but  outside the bubble.

I think the M line has already gone too far in its technical evolution. One possibility could be to split it into two opposite directions: An EVF-M with everything that can be put inside by modern stuff, and an M Classic, which is as close to a film-M as possible, and can also be merged with the screenless D-line.

[lct]

25 minutes ago, evikne said:

I think the M line has already gone too far in its technical evolution. One possibility could be to split it into two opposite directions: An EVF-M with everything that can be put inside by modern stuff, and an M Classic, which is as close to a film-M as possible, and can also be merged with the screenless D-line.

An EVF-M would interest me but i would miss a modern rangefinder in the same vein as the M11 with more speed and IBIS. M Classic? I can understand why it could please you and other colleagues here but thanks no thanks i got plenty enough legacy Ms already. I kept my M240 as backup in case i would keep some nostalgia but i use it occasionally only. But it's just me 😎

Edited December 3, 2024 by lct

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[evikne]

10 minutes ago, lct said:

An EVF-M would interest me but i would miss a modern rangefinder in the same vein as the M11 with more speed and IBIS. M Classic? I can understand why it could please you and other colleagues here but thanks no thanks i got plenty enough legacy Ms already. I kept my M240 as backup in case i would keep some nostalgia but i use it occasionally only. But it's just me 😎

Another option, of course, is to have three lines: A hi-tech EVF-M, a retro Classic line, and something in between, like the one we have today. But it remains to be seen how many M lines Leica can keep going at the same time.

[Dazzajl]

Leica are in a very tough place with the M line. It’s already both too modern and not modern enough, with that gap only set to become more of a chasm as technology marches forward. 
 

The only choices I can see for them moving forwards are very tough ones and from a business strategy point of view could end up having to ditch the hardcore following and merge the M and Q lines.