A weird Leica IIIc K

[Dimitar]

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Hello,

I am reaching out to hear your expert opinions about a weird Leica camera I bought yesterday from a flea market here in Berlin, Germany.

First and most obvious is the significantly smaller K next to the serial number. Has anyone ever seen such an example? Everything I could find online has a bolder and bigger K situated more to the right.

Second is the imperfect looking 8 in the serial number. Maybe I am tripping about this, you tell me. I saw a lot of goofy looking numbers in the Leica K serials online, but I think its worth mentioning in this case. In my opinion the K was not added later as it looks and feels like part of the serial number engraving. There is no K on the curtain. I can provide additional pictures if necessary, just let me know.

The skin of the camera is totally stripped off, it came with a Steinheil Munchen Orthostigmat 35mm and a leather case. It was a good deal so I couldn't pass on it, but now I really wonder what exactly do I have here. As I have almost no knowledge about old Leica cameras, your help would be greatly appreciated! And this is a IIIc converted to IIIf, right?

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[alan mcfall]

Well, it's in the right serial number range. 

387xxx

243	K	c
246	K	c
255	K	c
261	K	c
275	K	c
289	K	c
295	K	c

 

Yes, the K seems a little smaller than usual, but I suggest that it is original. Contact the factory for shipping information.

[Anbaric]

I can't really comment on the style of the 'K' or the '8' engravings, except to say that a camera with these external features is consistent with a 38xxxx or 39xxxx serial number. The first camera with a lock on the slow speed dial was 380901 or something close to that number, while I think the last camera with the wartime 'step' under the rewind release and knob on the eyepiece adjuster was in the 39xxxx range (and at least some of those 39xxxx cameras were grey, though I'm not sure if all were). As you suggest, this camera has been upgraded to a 'IIIf', but I don't think that would explain the lock on the slow speed dial (I've seen earlier IIIc bodies with the IIIf upgrade but no lock, so I assume this was something they didn't change when adding the flash sync - i.e., the lock on this one is presumably an original feature).

I assume a skilled technician could identify from the bearings whether this is a 'K' camera internally, though I don't know if the changes made during the IIIf upgrade would make that difficult. There should also be an internal serial number that ought to match the external number. Meanwhile, I would do as Alan suggests and contact info@leica-camera.com with a serial  number query to see what information they have. They may know the original shipping date and perhaps destination, and might even have a record of the IIIf upgrade.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Anbaric

[alphonse2501]

1 hour ago, alan mcfall said:

Well, it's in the right serial number range. 

387xxx

243	K	c
246	K	c
255	K	c
261	K	c
275	K	c
289	K	c
295	K	c

 

Yes, the K seems a little smaller than usual, but I suggest that it is original. Contact the factory for shipping information.

Contact Leica Archive: info@leica-camera.com for delivery record.
 

Since its "from a flea market here in Berlin", I would guess this IIIc K was delivered to domestic (civilian) customer before end of 1942/ beginning of 1943.

Also, what lens is it?

[jerzy]

looks genuine to me, As Anbaric wrote striping camera down will clarify if it is K internally and if number inside matches  outside. CLA would be anyhow advisible if you want to use the camera. Ball bearings were never added during regular conversion of stepper IIIc to IIIf. Missing K on shutter curtain is nothing unusual, curtains have been replaced. And if you want to have camera with genuine vulcanit than finding a donor stepper with intact vulcanite shall be possible.
One screw is however missing and I would advise to get it fixed, otherwise dust can penetrate rangefinder.

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Edited November 26, 2024 by jerzy

[TomB_tx]

Regarding the "8" engraving in the serial number, looks to me like it was first engraved as a 3 and then re-engraved as an 8.

[jankap]

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Isn´t it a IIIf? ? And with a remarkable "Y" in the word "Germany".

[Dimitar]

Thank you everyone for your comments, I really appreciate it! I will contact Leica to see what information they can provide and post the results here.

I probably won't do any repairs on the camera as I plan to sell it as is. Does anyone have any idea what price range should I aim to for the body only?

alphonse2501 the lens is Steinheil Munchen Orthostigmat VL 35mm F4.5

TomB_tx that was my initial concern, but now as I've seen a lot of crooked numbers in the serials online I think this is not the case

jankap there are many examples online of Germany spelled with this exact typography 

[UliWer]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Dimitar:

Does anyone have any idea what price range should I aim to for the body only?

You might also try at a flea market in Berlin how much you get for it.

Edited November 26, 2024 by UliWer

[Dimitar]

Oh I am sorry dear, I wasn't aware that this was not tolerated in the forum. Please ignore my question about the pricing.

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, TomB_tx said:

Regarding the "8" engraving in the serial number, looks to me like it was first engraved as a 3 and then re-engraved as an 8.

It wouldn't make sense for it to be a '3'. The earliest IIIc bodies are 36xxxx, and this variant should be 38xxxx or perhaps 39xxxx (if any of the latter were chrome, or chromed post-war).

1 hour ago, jankap said:

Isn´t it a IIIf? ? And with a remarkable "Y" in the word "Germany".

It's a IIIc converted to IIIf. You can tell by the wartime 'stepper' IIIc features, and by the screwed on sync dial plate.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Anbaric

[Panfoto]

I also bought my original IIIf with a Steinheil Orthostigmat 35mm and external viewfinder (which is needed) - but not at a flee Market. Aperture 4 is a bit weak, otherwise the lens is good. Your Orthostigmat still looks pretty “good”.
Does the camera work well?

Edited November 26, 2024 by Panfoto

[TomB_tx]

2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

It wouldn't make sense for it to be a '3'. The earliest IIIc bodies are 36xxxx, and this variant should be 38xxxx or perhaps 39xxxx (if any of the latter were chrome, or chromed post-war).

It would make sense if the factory engraver mistakenly duplicated the 3 just to the left of the 8, then corrected the try by over-engraving the 8. It is very precisely positioned, as if done while fixtured for engraving at the factory. Look closely and you can see the slightly thicker font precisely where the 3 would have been, but not where the left side of the 3 was open.

[Giuliobigazzi]

The ‘Germany’ engraving on the top plate suggest a post war re-engraving of the/a whole top plate by the factory, as well as the shutter dial addition. It could be that it was engraved and has been demilitarised. See if you can get Leica to give you the delivery number. 

[Dimitar]

Thank you for your comments! I just received the reply from Leica:

"The Leica IIIc with the SNr. 387261 was shipped to “Berlin” on 12th December, 1942.The recipient is not noted.

The camera was repaired on 12th October, 1948 and on 16th May, 1957.What was done is not noted.

The engraved K stands for (Kugelgelagert) ball bearing and is a bit smaller, but seems to be official"

 

Panfoto That's interesting! The lens is in decent condition yes, I haven't tested it yet though. The camera seems to work fine, slower speeds have remaining sound (I don't know the exact term), so it should definitely benefit from a CLA. 

[alphonse2501]

I’m going to change my previous comment. Receiver “Berlin” makes this camera might be ordered by military. Is there have removal marks under “Germany” engraving?

[Giuliobigazzi]

Camera 387259 was engraved SS-KBA, which is only 2 serials before yours. I have a strong suspicion 387261 may have been the same and demilitarised in 1948.

I would ask Leica for this camera’s delivery too, to see if they were delivered on the same day 

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Edited November 29, 2024 by Giuliobigazzi

[Giuliobigazzi]

387259K was indeed delivered the same day as yours, not 100% proof that it was SS-k but as close as you’ll get. 

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Hallo,

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