Digital technical camera or Leica SL for architecture

[Justad]

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Hi all,

I don’t t know if this is the right place, but I hope some of you have some experience to share. I like to make architectural and nature photography and I am thinking about jumping from analog to digital in the technikal camera world or just upgrade my SL2-S kit. 

I am now using a Sinar P2 4x5 analog camera and I love to use the camera and its function’s, but it is big and heavy so it is hard to carry far from the car. I am also only shooting B&W, but would like to shoot colors too and this is too expensive to do analog in 4x5. 

I have lately been thinking about a digital technikal camera, but it is very little information I find about it and it is an expensive way to go. I use Capture one for editing and cataloging my photos. 

I have 3 scenarios in my head

1.

I like my SL2-s but use it mostly for family photos and walking around the town, vocations etc. I don’t have a wide angle for the camera and would love some more megapixels. So I am thinking about upgrade to the SL3 with the 21mm Apo or Leica 16-35mm and use the perspective control in the camera, I will not have shift functions but do someone have experience with the perspective control, does it work well, or will I miss the shift functions?   

2.
I live in Norway so it is not a lot of selection of technical cameras. But it is a used Cambo WRS-1200 with a Rodenstock 32mm and A PhaseOne IQ4. This is the most Expensive option but it is some functions of the IQ4 camera that is interesting, but the IQ4 is over 5years old, and I am unsure about buying a digital camera of this age and if it will be expensive to own.  

 

3.Buying the WRS-1200 and buy a new Hasselblad  CVF 100C digital back, I will get a new camera and get the shift functions on the Cambo. But I will not be able to use Capture One, and have to find a new way to catalog my photos and to use Phocus.  For me I think it will be a lot of extra effort. 

 

The easiest and cheapest would be the Leica Route, but I am unsure if I will miss the functions from a technical camera, I love to set up and use the P2. it is also possible to buy a Canon T/S lens, but I have heard it is draining the battery and the quality can be different from lens to lens. I will also only be able to shift up/down or to the side. 
I am also very curious about the Leica S4, and thinking about waiting for that one, but I think it will be a long time before it will be available.    

This is a long post, but hope someone has some tips. 

Edited November 2, 2024 by Justad

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[jaapv]

Why not buy a (manual) T/S lens and use it on an adapter? 

[Photoworks]

I don't think shooting film in color is practical for architectural photography. 

You can control latitude with multiple exposures, but the biggest difference is filtering film vs dailing in kelvin for every light in processing.

If you like the Sinar type camera, ARCA or Silvestri makes a smaller one that is more usable for digital sensor size.

I used many systems in full frame, and the Leica SL2 and SL3 is the most convenient, in combination with Capture one and Ipad pro.

The way the sensor grass is designed on the SL cameras, adapting lenses is always better than any sony or canon camera. I use TS lenses from canon. they are good, but if you don't have to do many corrections I would use the APO SL summicrons and correct lines in post.

if you like to see shat the differences are between 35 digital and medium format, there is a practical test from Mr. Benard.

https://apalmanac.com/gear/christophe-benard-compares-fujifilm-gfx100-ii-sony-a7r-v-phase-one-iq260-183228

you will find that the Phase one camera is the best quality, but it is not the winner in every situation. 
I think you would find the SL3 to be a good option, with good lenses, and dust and water repellent.

[Einst_Stein]

This is my personal taste. I found T&S for architecture is good for technical purpose, when the least distortion is required. But for non-technical purpose, such as travel photos, I actiually like the perspective distortion. It looks more natural. 

In some situations when there is not enough lead room  to cover a tall building, I might shoot it verticallty and use shift lens. But I dont recall it makes me like the photo much better. 

Edited November 2, 2024 by Einst_Stein

[SrMi]

While it is not as precise as shift lenses or technical cameras, Leica's LPC is very helpful in architectural photography. It reduces the need for a shift lens and can produce better IQ. However, you may want to use a higher resolution camera (SL2, SL3) as the added resolution is beneficial for transformations in the post.,

[Pieter12]

36 minutes ago, SrMi said:

While it is not as precise as shift lenses or technical cameras, Leica's LPC is very helpful in architectural photography. It reduces the need for a shift lens and can produce better IQ. However, you may want to use a higher resolution camera (SL2, SL3) as the added resolution is beneficial for transformations in the post.,

If you use an SL2 or 3, you might as well use the TS APO Elmar S 120mm with an S-L adapter.

[Justad]

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Why not buy a (manual) T/S lens and use it on an adapter? 

I have been thinking about TS-E lenses from Canon. I have read earlier that the Canon T/S lenses drain power from the SL camera and that the quality control of the lenses is so so, if I am unlucky I will get a lens with less optical quality, but maybe this is wrong or this is better in the new TS-E lenses?
One thing I also like with a tecnical camera is that it is possible to Shift up/down and left/right, that is not poosible on a T/S lens. Useful when it is not possible to be in center of the object i want too shoot.
 

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I don't think shooting film in color is practical for architectural photography.

You can control latitude with multiple exposures, but the biggest difference is filtering film vs dailing in kelvin for every light in processing.

If you like the Sinar type camera, ARCA or Silvestri makes a smaller one that is more usable for digital sensor size.

I used many systems in full frame, and the Leica SL2 and SL3 is the most convenient, in combination with Capture one and Ipad pro.

The way the sensor grass is designed on the SL cameras, adapting lenses is always better than any sony or canon camera. I use TS lenses from canon. they are good, but if you don't have to do many corrections I would use the APO SL summicrons and correct lines in post.

if you like to see shat the differences are between 35 digital and medium format, there is a practical test from Mr. Benard.

https://apalmanac.com/gear/christophe-benard-compares-fujifilm-gfx100-ii-sony-a7r-v-phase-one-iq260-183228

you will find that the Phase one camera is the best quality, but it is not the winner in every situation. 
I think you would find the SL3 to be a good option, with good lenses, and dust and water repellent.

I have been looking at Cambo Actus and the new Arca Pico camera, but since the sensor is not "flush" with the mount on a SL camera the widest lens for the Arca Pico is 55/60mm, this is to wide for architecural i think, maybe it is possible to stich 2way or 4way but I am not sure how the lens image circle wil be effected by the sensor when it is longer back in the camera, its also more work with stitching, the Rodenstock lenses with big Image cirkles is quite expensive. But for other work it is an interesting solution, maybe with some medium format lenses.

I am also happy with Capture One and Leica, but havent tried tethering with an Ipad, maybe I should try this to slow down and have a quality control before leaving the location.
That is what I am thinking too, better IQ with the APO SL, and correct in Post, but then I have to have enough room around the subject for the crop, but maybe it is possible to check this in capture One on Ipad when tethering and make an edit. I would like to make as much as possible correct in camera, but if editing gives the same quality it is also a way to go.

I think also the SL3 is a good solution, 60mp gives room for crop in post for corrections and a lot of great lenses is available. Its also one camera I can use for "everything", but the IQ4 have some qualities too, but will only be used for some projects, and I am unsure the price (used) is worth it. 

 

3 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

This is my personal taste. I found T&S for architecture is good for technical purpose, when the least distortion is required. But for non-technical purpose, such as travel photos, I actiually like the perspective distortion. It looks more natural. 

In some situations when there is not enough lead room  to cover a tall building, I might shoot it verticallty and use shift lens. But I dont recall it makes me like the photo much better. 

This is a good input, maybe I have been to focused on making things "straight" with the Sinar. And maybe I wil not find the same pleasure with a Digital tecnikal camera, some of the fun is the slow process, setting up the camera, make everything correct on the ground glass, measure the light and find the right exposure, taking the photo, developing the photo and find out I have used to much shift and the upper left part of the picture is black

 

[jaapv]

https://www.dpreview.com/products/schneider/lenses/schneider_pc_28_2p8

[Justad]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

While it is not as precise as shift lenses or technical cameras, Leica's LPC is very helpful in architectural photography. It reduces the need for a shift lens and can produce better IQ. However, you may want to use a higher resolution camera (SL2, SL3) as the added resolution is beneficial for transformations in the post.,

32 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

If you use an SL2 or 3, you might as well use the TS APO Elmar S 120mm with an S-L adapter.

If I go this route I will buy a SL3 for the extra Mp, but maybe I will buy the 21 Apo and test on mye SL2-S first before i decide.
Maybe the Leica LPC is good to controll that i will get everything in frame and later edit in C1 or will the result of Leica LPC and C1 edit be about the same?

I have been looking at the TS APO Elmar S 120mm, but it will be too long, I shoot mostly 65, 90 and 180 on the 4x5 (21mm 28mm and 60mm FF equivalents)
 

[Justad]

22 minutes ago, jaapv said:

https://www.dpreview.com/products/schneider/lenses/schneider_pc_28_2p8

Thanks, I have not heard of this lens before, it seems as a older lens that can be soft if shiftet to much. 
I will make some more research.
Is it Possible to use the Fujifilm GF 30mm F5.6 T/S on the Leica Sl with a quality adapter?
I dont know if it has better quality than the Canon T/S lenses.

[Einst_Stein]

53 minutes ago, Justad said:

I have been thinking about TS-E lenses from Canon. I have read earlier that the Canon T/S lenses drain power from the SL camera and that the quality control of the lenses is so so, if I am unlucky I will get a lens with less optical quality, but maybe this is wrong or this is better in the new TS-E lenses?
One thing I also like with a tecnical camera is that it is possible to Shift up/down and left/right, that is not poosible on a T/S lens. Useful when it is not possible to be in center of the object i want too shoot.
 

I have been looking at Cambo Actus and the new Arca Pico camera, but since the sensor is not "flush" with the mount on a SL camera the widest lens for the Arca Pico is 55/60mm, this is to wide for architecural i think, maybe it is possible to stich 2way or 4way but I am not sure how the lens image circle wil be effected by the sensor when it is longer back in the camera, its also more work with stitching, the Rodenstock lenses with big Image cirkles is quite expensive. But for other work it is an interesting solution, maybe with some medium format lenses.

I am also happy with Capture One and Leica, but havent tried tethering with an Ipad, maybe I should try this to slow down and have a quality control before leaving the location.
That is what I am thinking too, better IQ with the APO SL, and correct in Post, but then I have to have enough room around the subject for the crop, but maybe it is possible to check this in capture One on Ipad when tethering and make an edit. I would like to make as much as possible correct in camera, but if editing gives the same quality it is also a way to go.

I think also the SL3 is a good solution, 60mp gives room for crop in post for corrections and a lot of great lenses is available. Its also one camera I can use for "everything", but the IQ4 have some qualities too, but will only be used for some projects, and I am unsure the price (used) is worth it. 

 

This is a good input, maybe I have been to focused on making things "straight" with the Sinar. And maybe I wil not find the same pleasure with a Digital tecnikal camera, some of the fun is the slow process, setting up the camera, make everything correct on the ground glass, measure the light and find the right exposure, taking the photo, developing the photo and find out I have used to much shift and the upper left part of the picture is black

 

Mind that this is just my personal taste. If you like what you used to get, then just keep your practice. 

I had Hasselblad Flex body, Fujifilm GX680. All have some movement. I have not found the movement not enough, instead, I feel the PC corrections actually makes the image rather more weird, espeically after correcting the tilt distortion and enhancing the tilted focus plane. Sometimes, the objects look like "Honey, I shrinked the kids".

 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Justad said:

If I go this route I will buy a SL3 for the extra Mp, but maybe I will buy the 21 Apo and test on mye SL2-S first before i decide.
Maybe the Leica LPC is good to controll that i will get everything in frame and later edit in C1 or will the result of Leica LPC and C1 edit be about the same?
 

LPC works only with Adobe, though you could use it in camera as a framing tool only.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, Justad said:

Thanks, I have not heard of this lens before, it seems as a older lens that can be soft if shiftet to much. 
I will make some more research.
Is it Possible to use the Fujifilm GF 30mm F5.6 T/S on the Leica Sl with a quality adapter?
I dont know if it has better quality than the Canon T/S lenses.

No. You'll need the GFX100ii or 100sii. Both are excellent and you will get better possible IQ than any small format camera is able. There's also a 110mm available. The 32-64 might make an excellent third lens based on your posts (25-52 equiv). Honestly, that's what I'd be looking at. GFX100Sii, 30TS, 110TS, 32-64. On a tripod you could also use the 400MP high res mode if you're chasing pixels.

For the Canon T/S lenses. The 17mm is good but the weakest. The 24 is very good for 3/4 of the shift. Above that they're excellent (and newer releases). Battery drain isn't a huge issue. Buy a spare if you're worried. You get full normal use of the lenses with the Sigma EF-L adaptor.

Gordon

[Jon Warwick]

For architecture, I agree with the Gordon, a GFX100 and Fuji T/S lens possibly seems a good way, on the basis of in-camera control to get your verticals correct etc. If you're doing nature too, there are a lot of lenses available too for that system that might work. An original GFX100S (not the mark ii) that came out a few years back are also cheap in the used market, for medium format at least. The IQ of my GFX100S on paper is higher than any Leica full frame that I've tried in the sense of maximum resolution, but the overall rendering can be different - and i'm not sure i always like the rendering off the Fuji as much as what I get off my M11 (or the SL3 that i've tried). It goes without saying that lenses determine a lot in terms of "look" of your files, and Fuji has a very sharp look to it - whereas the Leica SL lenses perhaps do a different job in terms of recording a lot of detail, but in a more subtle way (which i appreciate as a former 5x4 film user that is used to a less screamingly sharp look)? Hard to describe, and i'd imagine very personal to the individual user. In terms of Leica Perspective Control, I personally like it a lot, and find it more lossless in terms of image quality than i'd assumed - but it's clearly a very different way to visualise than a T/S.

Edited November 3, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[Photoworks]

17 hours ago, Justad said:

If I go this route I will buy a SL3 for the extra Mp, but maybe I will buy the 21 Apo and test on mye SL2-S first before i decide.
Maybe the Leica LPC is good to controll that i will get everything in frame and later edit in C1 or will the result of Leica LPC and C1 edit be about the same?

 

The 21mm is an exelent lens, and the rest of the APO's. you can still ad the canon TSE 17 and 24.

you can add a frame for the TSE lenses from ROGETI . 

Sometimes I find myself in places that to small to fit all of the room in one frame, and a 3-frame stick is the solution with the 17mm  (shift up 10, middle, down -10)

of a 4-frame rotation for a large circle of stitching.  the alternative would be to use an 8-10mm lens, which brings other problems.

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You asked about power with TSE lenses, that is not true. the Sigma adapter is the cause of more power consumption. 
But considering you are not shooting 4K or 5fps in landscape or architectural. and so many use this lens and other adapted lens without problems. this is not so much an issue on the SL3 and more on SL2.

 

Advise on Canon lenses TSE variation and limitation.

the 17 mm does not accept the Pola filter,  to me, this is a challenge many times as I need to filter floors and road reflections. The only solution is to use a different camera , Canon mirrorless with an adapter that has a filter holder, or a different lens. I have been using the 15mm from Irix that takes a 95mm filter.

The 17mm offers from flare if you have lights from above, so bring a black card to hold it outside of the frame to remove them.

Both 17 and 24 TSE have some version of Chromatic abbaration, and there are many variations on it, especially the 24mm I would test a few and see what you like best.

the resolution of the TSE is good, not like the APOs's, but better than the Irix 15 and Laowa lenses.

 

Capture One for iPad allows you to control the camera and use bracket functions, something the Leica FOTOS app does not.
Leica Prospective correction is specific to Lightroon, It does not work with Capture One, but the tools from Capture One never slowed me down and LPC overcompensates when shooting high up.

[lx1713]

On 11/2/2024 at 11:41 PM, Justad said:

Hi all,

I don’t t know if this is the right place, but I hope some of you have some experience to share. I like to make architectural and nature photography and I am thinking about jumping from analog to digital in the technikal camera world or just upgrade my SL2-S kit. 

I am now using a Sinar P2 4x5 analog camera and I love to use the camera and its function’s, but it is big and heavy so it is hard to carry far from the car. I am also only shooting B&W, but would like to shoot colors too and this is too expensive to do analog in 4x5. 

I have lately been thinking about a digital technikal camera, but it is very little information I find about it and it is an expensive way to go. I use Capture one for editing and cataloging my photos. 

I have 3 scenarios in my head

1.

I like my SL2-s but use it mostly for family photos and walking around the town, vocations etc. I don’t have a wide angle for the camera and would love some more megapixels. So I am thinking about upgrade to the SL3 with the 21mm Apo or Leica 16-35mm and use the perspective control in the camera, I will not have shift functions but do someone have experience with the perspective control, does it work well, or will I miss the shift functions?   

2.
I live in Norway so it is not a lot of selection of technical cameras. But it is a used Cambo WRS-1200 with a Rodenstock 32mm and A PhaseOne IQ4. This is the most Expensive option but it is some functions of the IQ4 camera that is interesting, but the IQ4 is over 5years old, and I am unsure about buying a digital camera of this age and if it will be expensive to own.  

 

3.Buying the WRS-1200 and buy a new Hasselblad  CVF 100C digital back, I will get a new camera and get the shift functions on the Cambo. But I will not be able to use Capture One, and have to find a new way to catalog my photos and to use Phocus.  For me I think it will be a lot of extra effort. 

 

The easiest and cheapest would be the Leica Route, but I am unsure if I will miss the functions from a technical camera, I love to set up and use the P2. it is also possible to buy a Canon T/S lens, but I have heard it is draining the battery and the quality can be different from lens to lens. I will also only be able to shift up/down or to the side. 
I am also very curious about the Leica S4, and thinking about waiting for that one, but I think it will be a long time before it will be available.    

This is a long post, but hope someone has some tips. 

Hi Justad,

Just a bit of backstory first, I have traveled down the path you are considering except I was a Sinar C2 film user. While I continue to be a professional photographer I moved away from the product photography. I hope to relive the fun of using a tech camera.

Firstly there's an enormous technological gap to bridge from 4x5 film to today and you have many other options available that others have suggested. Their suggestions are quite sound. 

I'm going to comment first on your 3 scenarios. 

1. The built in functions will satisfy the occasional adjustments but it will become slow and tedious compared to what you can do in a few seconds in the P2. Shift: if you are photographing a shop front and don't want to appear in it or use a polariser to reduce glare. The shift may be useful. Correcting parallels and verticals that is simple in the P2 in-camera may frustrate you in computer. 

2. The Cambo, Rodenstock and Phaseone are excellent stuff. May I suggest something simpler that doesn't require the very high engineering tolerances of the current generation equipment. How about something like the (Non folding Field View camera) Ebony 45SU coupled with a Fotodiox Hasselblad V-Mount Backs to Large Format 4x5 View Cameras. Get a used 907x with the CFVii 50c. And just get 2 turn of century Rodenstock digital transition lenses. A Rodenstock Apo-Grandagon 55mm f4.5 lens (image circle : 130mm) and an Apo Sinaron 90mm f5.6 (image circle : (140mm I think). The resolutions are not fantastic compared to a Leica but if you are stitching, shifting, swinging and stuff like that it may not really matter. 

A couple of possible negatives. I have not fitted the Fotodiox adapter to my Ebony ( mine is a 23S so it doesn't fit, I was exploring and learning). I have only shot with the Apo Sinaran 90mm f5.6 with my Sinar P3/Leica SL2 which I'm happy with but I am slowly working it more like a hobby. You will need a center filter with the Apo Grandagon. It's hard to find a good one these days. Looking at the MTF curves, and the fact that these lenses were built for 6x9, 4x5 and the early digital lenses, it will be detailed but gentle tones to the details. With this combo you are stuck with stopping down to the aperture and using the digital back's electronic shutter. No flash sync. Coming from the P2, you will do not need to stop down as much as f16/22 as before but f 8-11 is the optimum.  As you might know already, the image circle will increase with a smaller aperture so you can push your stitching limits. 

I have the 45mm apo-grandagon. you have 110 deg and a 130mm image circle so you can stitch 3x the sensor size of the digital back. Out of sensor it is 45mm x 0.8 = 35mm. One other tidbit. Many of the current digital lenses are rehoused and updated for today's sensors from older generation lenses. A lens may have a different focal length and bigger image circle but because of the resolution demands only the "center of the lens" is deemed to be sufficient quality. The literature from 1995 - 2010 is massively confusing. 

3. I can't comment much on either PhaseOne and the Hasselblad except that I have been reading up. Others will do a much better job of advising you. Phocus and CaptureOne are both solid softwares. If you are doing commercial work it's CaptureOne.

 In summary, do your own research. Don't reject the older stuff. They're about 5-15% what it used to cost. It will be confusing because of the transition. The old literature is useful but it's a lot of work so something modern is a lot less upfront due diligence. If you need me to send you. I have a ton of it but the age of the stuff is unknown for most part.

A lot depends on what you want to do from today. And also nothing really comes close to replacing a P2 in terms of executing the shot. It's really very well designed. I have a refurb P3 DF and a new old F3-SL barely touched because I'm slowly working through what I really want to do.

I hope this isn't too detailed and that it helps you. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by lx1713

[shorifseo247]

nice post

 

[Kristofferpaulsen]

hello mate. 

 

So i have a Phase One IQ3100 kit, with a Cambo and some nice lenses.. and i love using it, but for the most part clients just dont really care anymore, and I really think i need to get a wide Rodo before it's really practical. 

I recently sold my SL2 in prep to buy a 3 (got offered a bit too good a price for it) and have been shooting on my SL2S lately, and honestly, it's fantastic. I have my old Canon TS 17 and 24, and they're totally fine, great even. I do five shot bracketing (probably an overkill, could do in 3, but why not..) and do the Capture One HDR photo merge, and it's fantastic. It gives me a super high latitude DNG, which i then treat the same way I'd treat any other file. I've heard about the Laowa L mount shift lenses, which I'd love to try, but just havent been a priority when the old Canon glass is good enough. 

When i finish paying off my SL3, i'm pretty confident I'll probably never use my Cambo again..

Here's a few samples from the SL2S and the canon 17. Not the sharpest, but totally adequate.  Shot these last week, not final edits but it shows you a bit of what it can do.

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Edited February 4 by Kristofferpaulsen

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[Kristofferpaulsen]

Another two from a venue in Melbourne

 

I think I panelled for these

 

 

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[Justad]

Thank you for all the help, I havent been active here for some time so I havent read all the replyes before today.
I ordered the SL3 and 21Apo before Christmas, but I still waiting for the 21Apo. I bought a Used 35 Apo and I am happy with that.
It will be interesting to try the 21 Apo when it arrives, if I need some more field of view or/ and TS functions I will try a Canon TL lens
I still use the Sinar P2 with 4x5 B&W film for my project, and think that the Leica with 35 and 21 will do a good job when i dont want to carry the heavy equppment.