M11-P advice for achieving the best colour accuracy

[charlesphoto99]

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33 minutes ago, Panchenlama said:

I already have. I got great results previously with exactly the same setup using a fuji x100f, same lights, same settings, also with my old LR5. Import, create colour checker profile, apply profile, eyedropper WB and done, no further adjustments needed and they looked great. No magenta lean. I don't mind post processing, but I feel like I'm not able to get the results I want with these M11 files now matter how much time I spend on them.

Could very well be the difference in the sensor glass layers between Fuji and Leica. Who knows...

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[charlesphoto99]

God knows, it might come down to whoever does the M11 code for WB has a screen that isn't calibrated correctly (or calibrated 'differently'), and they don't read forums or listen to anybody else, and just send the code onwards. I've noticed the magenta cast from images posted day one of release. 

[geotrupede]

Seems complicated but it is not, it just takes some more extra steps to calibrate images.

All you need is the x-rite colour checker, then take the shots under any light with a decent colour rendition. CCT is not important, nor what is set in camera as you will shoot RAW. Exposure should be adjusted with medium grey so that you have lowest ISO, aperture to max sharpness and sufficient depth of field. White balance not needed.

The software will look at your picture (*), searching for the colour patches from the x-rite, read the RGB values, and compare to the data from the chart specifications. The software will then iteratively adjust a colour transformation matrix with the objective of minimising the dE across the colour patches.

Once completed the profile will be such the colour difference between the RGB values and the patches is minimised. It will not be 0, but sufficiently low not to be not noticeable to most. So any colour in the image will now be matched to the real ones. Of course, in order to see the image properly the screen also needs calibration, and the printer too. But the data saved is calibrated.

G>

 

PS (*) you shoot raw and pass the image as a 16 bit linear tiff for this to be done, then apply the profile to the DNG. this is C1. for LR may be even easier to do as if I recall you just need the DNG. One profile only works for one room/light combination. There is not such a thing as a profile that works all the time if you are searching for optimal colour reproduction. The closest are profiles for two different lighting scenarios that interpolate in between. But for your intended purpose I think you need one specific.

 

[otto.f]

On 10/19/2024 at 5:55 PM, charlesphoto99 said:

God knows, it might come down to whoever does the M11 code for WB has a screen that isn't calibrated correctly (or calibrated 'differently'), and they don't read forums or listen to anybody else, and just send the code onwards. I've noticed the magenta cast from images posted day one of release. 

So who’s going to doubt his screen or calibration of it, me or Leica. If it is that easy, which some of us here tell that building your own colorprofile is a piece of cake, why wouldn’t Leica have sent a firmware update  in our world to correct that magenta?

[otto.f]

.

Edited October 20, 2024 by otto.f

[lct]

4 minutes ago, otto.f said:

So who’s going to doubt his screen or calibration of it, me or Leica. If it is that easy, which some of us here tell that building your own colorprofile is a piece of cake, why wouldn’t Leica have sent a firmware update  in our world to correct that magenta?

Because all Leica users don't see that so-called magenta cast i guess. What i see is just a bit of red oversaturation personally. I find it pleasant generally and it is easy to adjust in PP anyway.

[Photoworks]

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On 10/19/2024 at 10:06 AM, Panchenlama said:

My screen isn't currently colour calibrated

you should probably stop what you are doing and calibrate the screen first.

All modern programs use the information of the calibration file to display color correctly and color management will carry it all the way to the saved file.

You should not do any critical work of color before you have an ICC for your monitor.

If the work is color critical, the best option would be to have a good profile for the camera. In C1pro the profile of the M11 is already very good, if you use good color reproductive light you should be already very close with the results.

I don't think the LED  would be my choice, but you can try it.

[Photoworks]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:06 AM, Panchenlama said:

colour calibrated

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this does not correct. if you go by the numbers, just use the correct number for the chart.

there are instructions in PDF on the web, what every color should be reading.

closer to this.

[Photoworks]

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jaapv]

Good reminder. I need to replace my Passport. 

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, Photoworks said:

you should ******** stop what you are doing and calibrate the screen first.

All modern programs use the information of the calibration file to display color correctly and color management will carry it all the way to the saved file.

You should not do any critical work of color before you have an ICC for your monitor.

If the work is color critical, the best option would be to have a good profile for the camera. In C1pro the profile of the M11 is already very good, if you use good color reproductive light you should be already very close with the results.

I don't think the LED  would be my choice, but you can try it.

Fully agreed but for one thing. Without calibration everything else is useless. So I took out the “probably “ 

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, otto.f said:

So who’s going to doubt his screen or calibration of it, me or Leica. If it is that easy, which some of us here tell that building your own colorprofile is a piece of cake, why wouldn’t Leica have sent a firmware update  in our world to correct that magenta?

Because they don’t do the rest of your postprocessing for you either. 

[jaapv]

15 hours ago, geotrupede said:

Seems complicated but it is not, it just takes some more extra steps to calibrate images.

All you need is the x-rite colour checker, then take the shots under any light with a decent colour rendition. CCT is not important, nor what is set in camera as you will shoot RAW. Exposure should be adjusted with medium grey so that you have lowest ISO, aperture to max sharpness and sufficient depth of field. White balance not needed.

The software will look at your picture (*), searching for the colour patches from the x-rite, read the RGB values, and compare to the data from the chart specifications. The software will then iteratively adjust a colour transformation matrix with the objective of minimising the dE across the colour patches.

Once completed the profile will be such the colour difference between the RGB values and the patches is minimised. It will not be 0, but sufficiently low not to be not noticeable to most. So any colour in the image will now be matched to the real ones. Of course, in order to see the image properly the screen also needs calibration, and the printer too. But the data saved is calibrated.

G>

 

PS (*) you shoot raw and pass the image as a 16 bit linear tiff for this to be done, then apply the profile to the DNG. this is C1. for LR may be even easier to do as if I recall you just need the DNG. One profile only works for one room/light combination. There is not such a thing as a profile that works all the time if you are searching for optimal colour reproduction. The closest are profiles for two different lighting scenarios that interpolate in between. But for your intended purpose I think you need one specific.

 

There are dual-illuminant profiles. 

[charlesphoto99]

18 hours ago, otto.f said:

So who’s going to doubt his screen or calibration of it, me or Leica. If it is that easy, which some of us here tell that building your own colorprofile is a piece of cake, why wouldn’t Leica have sent a firmware update  in our world to correct that magenta?

Because Leica have never done firmware updates for image quality purposes, only hardware functionality. It's too risky to change everybody's overall white balance etc settings mid-stream. Unless there's something glaringly wrong, Leica set the sensor look at release. 

[pedaes]

44 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

something glaringly wrong,

And of course there is absolutely nothing 'glaringly wrong'!  You are correct in that a lot of very competent people would have been involved in getting the sensor to the best compromise for colours. I for one think they did a good job and find the M11 colours to be lovely and neutral.  

[Smogg]

3 minutes ago, pedaes said:

And of course there is absolutely nothing 'glaringly wrong'!  You are correct in that a lot of very competent people would have been involved in getting the sensor to the best compromise for colours. I for one think they did a good job and find the M11 colours to be lovely and neutral.  

If the colors on the M11 are correct, then it follows that they are not correct on the SL3, Q3, Q3 43 cameras, which share the same sensor with the M11.

[pedaes]

2 minutes ago, Smogg said:

correct

Don't know if they are correct or not, whatever 'correct' is, but as I said, I find then lovely. There are of course a number of other variables in the chain after image capture which don't involve the sensor.

[Smogg]

6 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Don't know if they are correct or not, whatever 'correct' is, but as I said, I find then lovely. There are of course a number of other variables in the chain after image capture which don't involve the sensor.

Okay, let me put it another way: the M11 is different from all other Leica cameras and not only Leica cameras in that it has a lovely magenta tint😃

Edited October 21, 2024 by Smogg

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[lct]

Some people want the "Leica look" but when they get it they want another one... They would better learn how to set WB. Nothing personal 😎

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

...They would better learn how to set WB. Nothing personal 😎

Pretty much everyone complaining about the magenta bias knows how to correct it, but a camera that consistently biased should be addressed. But Leica can't address it globally, because as was demonstrated previously, each M11 gets its own WB bias numbers from the factory written into the DNG. So the only "solution" if there is one would be to add a menu option allow global WB temperature and tint offset like Fujifilm does.