Fifty-Fifty

[CP93]

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I apologize if this has been beaten to death previously; feel free to point me at older threads if it has.

 I’m looking to add a 50mm to my M10R, and am feeling overwhelmed by the choices, specs, and subjective reviews. In a few words, which of these would you recommend and why?

 I am purely amateur and shoot mostly street, events (e.g., farmers’ markets), landscape, cityscape, abstract, and similar. No sports, no birds, rarely portraits. Not considering Chinese mfgrs at this time but I suppose I might change that if there’s a good argument for it.

Considering:

• Pre-asph Summicron
• ASPH-Summicron
• Older LTM
• Voigtländer Color Skopar (said to be coming this month)
• Other Voigtländer
• Zeiss Planar T*
• Other Zeiss
• Jupiter/Industar/Helios/Mir/etc.
• None of the above

TIA for the benefit of your experience…

Edited July 6, 2024 by CP93

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[BWColor]

Given the wide variety of lens presentations within your list, it seems that you want a lens, but don’t have a preference as to how it renders.  Maybe look through 50mm images on Flickr to see if you have a preference.  I don’t shoot much 50mm, but wanted a technically sharp lens edge to edge.  I purchased a Voigtlander 50mm f/2.0 APO Lanthar.  I already had a M-Hexanon 50mm f/1.2 which provides very different rendering.

[hansvons]

In terms of everything (myth, budget, size, ergonomics, reliability, sharpness, and personality) the 50mm Summicron V4 (with focusing tab) or V5 (no focusing tab but in-built hood) is the best first 50mm lens. It’s THE classic Leica 50mm from a today’s point of view. 

I‘d get the Canadian V4 version in a pristine condition. 

[pegelli]

I can only tell you which 50 mm M's I have and when I use them

1. Elmar 50/3.5 1949: Small, light, collapsible, pretty sharp for such an old lens with a nice "old fashioned" rendering (b.t.w. Lens has been in our family since new)
2. Summicron 50/2, 1957 (v1, rigid): found a cheap one with some haze, very sharp and also a nice "old fashioned" rendering, slightly different from the Elmar but hard to describe
3. M-Elmar 50/2.8, 2001: nice sharp modern rendering, but also small, light and collapsible
4. Voigtländer Nokton 50/1.2: bought for low light and shallow dof purposes, but very sharp and nice sunstars when stopped down, vs. all my other 50's a lot more bulky and heavy

Note, I have never been obsessed with ultimate sharpness but more by a good balance between sharpness and the other characteristics of a lens. So before you decide which lens to get you have to define what aspects of the lens rendering you're looking for.

Here's a nice article, describing the results you can get from several 50 mm lenses that are on the market with an M-mount today.

Edited July 6, 2024 by pegelli

[TomB_tx]

Sounds like a general purpose 50... depends on your budget - but I'd agree with hansvons: a Leica user should have a Summicron, and the vers 3 to 5 would be a natural choice.

[hansvons]

12 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

and the vers 3 to 5 would be a natural choice.

Adding to that, V4 and 5 share the same optics, V3 is an earlier design. V5 is still new for sale. All of them are classic double Gauss designs. 

Edited July 6, 2024 by hansvons

[spydrxx]

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Yes the topic has been beaten to death, but hopefully you have read through all of the previous posts on this topic. As an owner of numerous 50s, Leica, Japanese, and Chinese, I can say, given the paucity of info you provided, any should do the job for you. If you must have a Leica branded one, let your budget decide if you aren't looking for a particular rendering (mostly noticeable only to the trained eye). If budget is a constraint the Zeiss Planar T* is a well built, remarkably sharp, contrasty lens....IMHO fully competitive with the Summicrons and actually beating some versions. OTOH I really like the old Elmar 50/3.5 (screwmount) and an adapter ring for the M body. Wide open it is really dreamy and has the characteristic "Leica glow" and stopped down is a good all rounder. It is collapsible, making it quite a small package, and it is dirt cheap as fanboys go for the latest, greatest and most expensive lenses.

[pippy]

Another vote for the v4/v5 Summicron.

The fact that the very same optical formula has been in production since 1979 pretty much says all one needs to know. In addition these lenses are both light and compact which further enhances their appeal. My own preference was the v4 due to the clip-on hood and focus-tab details.

FWIW - just in case this might be interpreted as being 'Bias-confirmation' - I have a number of Leitz 50s from f3.5 to f1.5 (as well as some third-party lenses) but the Summicron v4 is - and always will be - my #1 choice for all-round snapping.

Philip.

Edited July 6, 2024 by pippy

[lct]

12 hours ago, CP93 said:

I am purely amateur and shoot mostly street, events (e.g., farmers’ markets), landscape, cityscape, abstract, and similar. No sports, no birds, rarely portraits.

A lens with modern rendition could fit then. My best ones are 50/2 Summicron apo and 50/2 Planar. Matter of tastes but if i were on a budget i would go for the Planar (specs attached) w/o hesitation. I like much Summicrons non apo too but i prefer them on portraits.

zm5020.pdf

[RexGig0]

13 hours ago, CP93 said:

I apologize if this has been beaten to death previously; feel free to point me at older threads if it has.

 I’m looking to add a 50mm to my M10R, and am feeling overwhelmed by the choices, specs, and subjective reviews. In a few words, which of these would you recommend and why?

 I am purely amateur and shoot mostly street, events (e.g., farmers’ markets), landscape, cityscape, abstract, and similar. No sports, no birds, rarely portraits. Not considering Chinese mfgrs at this time but I suppose I might change that if there’s a good argument for it.

Considering:

• Pre-asph Summicron
• ASPH-Summicron
• Older LTM
• Voigtländer Color Skopar (said to be coming this month)
• Other Voigtländer
• Zeiss Planar T*
• Other Zeiss
• Jupiter/Industar/Helios/Mir/etc.
• None of the above

TIA for the benefit of your experience…

Of the choices on your list, I have used two versions of pre-ASPH Summicron, and, an “Other Voigtlander,” namely the 50mm APO Lanthar. I consider both to be valuable. Some conditions and tasks call for the modern optical corrections in the glass elements of the APO Lanthar, but, some creative desires call for the classic rendering of a Walter Mandler 1979 Version IV/V, or an even more-vintage look of an even older Summicron.

I did not buy my first M camera, an original M10, to shoot well-corrected, “modern” images. Adding the well-corrected APO Lanthar allows me to shoot well-corrected images with an M camera, which can save me the trouble of having to tote a DSLR and a modern, well-corrected Nikkor, Canon, or Zeiss lens, when I would rather carry the smaller M kit.

Actually, a Summilux-M 50mm ASPH was my first Leica M lens, but I felt that it was very much worth it to add Summicron lenses, later. A Summilux is not “better” than a Summicron, nor is the reverse true. Each reflects design choices being made, during the development of each lens.
 

 

[Robert Blanko]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb CP93:

I apologize if this has been beaten to death previously; feel free to point me at older threads if it has.

 I’m looking to add a 50mm to my M10R, and am feeling overwhelmed by the choices, specs, and subjective reviews. In a few words, which of these would you recommend and why?

 I am purely amateur and shoot mostly street, events (e.g., farmers’ markets), landscape, cityscape, abstract, and similar. No sports, no birds, rarely portraits. Not considering Chinese mfgrs at this time but I suppose I might change that if there’s a good argument for it.

Considering:

• Pre-asph Summicron
• ASPH-Summicron
• Older LTM
• Voigtländer Color Skopar (said to be coming this month)
• Other Voigtländer
• Zeiss Planar T*
• Other Zeiss
• Jupiter/Industar/Helios/Mir/etc.
• None of the above

TIA for the benefit of your experience…

The IMHO most universal and recommendable lens is the Summilux 50/1.4 which is missing in your list. This can do all, has a pleasant bokeh (of course, this is subjective) and delivers contrasty and crisp images.

Other 50ies I use(d):

50 APO: may standard lens for hiking / landscape. Nice bokeh and falloff.

Zeiss Sonnar: more "character" at apertures below f/2. Sharp and contrasty at smaller apertures. 3D pop. Comparatively small and light.

Voigtländer Norton 50/1.2: also quite universal, like Summilux, but softer at open aperture. For f/1.2 not too heavy and bulky.

Collapsible 50/2.8 Elmar: not on Summilux level but very satisfying. Small and light.

 

It would be helpful if you would define the boundary conditions in terms of budget, size, weight, rendering etc. that you desire ... 

 

[CP93]

I really appreciate the answers, guys. Helpful and informative, like I expected!

> It would be helpful if you would define the boundary conditions in terms of budget, size, weight, rendering etc. that you desire ... 

Like everyone, I want it all, LOL. The following are not set in stone:

Prefer $1000 or less;
Small and light (If I want a boat anchor I'll carry the Nikon);
Modern sharpness and contrast -- I'll go for mood later.

I'm thinking maybe either the Planar or an Elmar to start, with the Summicron as a goal for later when I sell some older kit.

 

[lct]

28 minutes ago, CP93 said:

I'm thinking maybe either the Planar or an Elmar to start

Excellent choice. If you mean the latest M version from 1994, the Elmar is a very small f/2.8 lens with collapsible capabilities whereas the Planar is a rigid f/2 lens similar size wise to the current Summicron non apo. The Planar is a bit sharper, significantly so at edges and corners, while the Elmar has a bit less distortion, focus shift and color fringing. Both lenses are almost flare free and have a smooth out-of-focus rendition. Great lenses, you cannot go wrong with either.

Edited July 6, 2024 by lct

[TomB_tx]

2 hours ago, CP93 said:

I'm thinking maybe either the Planar or an Elmar to start, with the Summicron as a goal for later when I sell some older kit.

Good choice. I have both lenses (2.8 Elmar was the first Leica lens I used - in about 1966). While I have a soft spot for the Elmar, I'd say go with the Planar - easier to find in you budget, more modern feel when using, and a great performer. Many prefer it to the Summicron. (Note the Elmar-M f2.8 is a different more modern lens, performance about equal to Summicron but not likely to fit in your budget.)

[Robert Blanko]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb TomB_tx:

(Note the Elmar-M f2.8 is a different more modern lens, performance about equal to Summicron but not likely to fit in your budget.)

I was not aware of this specific difference until you pointed this out. 
 

I have indeed the Elmar M f2.8 and this is the one I mentioned in my earlier post. Could be still within the budget. I bought mine used for about 600 Euros about five years ago if I remember correctly.

[hansvons]

11 hours ago, CP93 said:

Prefer $1000 or less;

Got my Summicron V4 Canada for 900 EUR in a close-to-pristine condition two years ago. The market had hardly changed since. The Planar is larger and heavier.

I’m not Leica-biased. I shot most of my professional life with Zeiss glass. The ZM series is produced by Cosina in Japan, as is the Voigtländer brand. Again nothing bad about that (own a Voigtländer lens). But there’s a difference in how Cosina makes lenses and Zeiss Oberkochen and Leica Wetzlar make lenses. So, in that regard, the Zeiss ZM line isn’t as much Zeiss as Leica wouldn’t be Leica if their lenses were made by Cosina.

However, Cosina is an excellent lens manufacturer in their own right. 

Edited July 7, 2024 by hansvons

[Datsch]

For the best 50mm review IMHO: https://www.47-degree.com/focus-shift/leica-m-50mm-lens-comparison-part-4

I ended up with the Voigtlander 1.5 Nokton Version 2 which is compact and yet gives summilux-style rendering when needed as well as sharp everyday f5.6 shooting

As you don't seem to require f1.4, the Leica Summarit f2.4 (now discontinued) gets very good reviews for sharpness and ergonomics. Just be aware it only focuses to 0.8m, not 0.7m like most Rf lenses ...

Edited July 7, 2024 by Datsch

[Jon Warwick]

21 hours ago, pippy said:

Another vote for the v4/v5 Summicron.

The fact that the very same optical formula has been in production since 1979 pretty much says all one needs to know. In addition these lenses are both light and compact which further enhances their appeal. My own preference was the v4 due to the clip-on hood and focus-tab details.

FWIW - just in case this might be interpreted as being 'Bias-confirmation' - I have a number of Leitz 50s from f3.5 to f1.5 (as well as some third-party lenses) but the Summicron v4 is - and always will be - my #1 choice for all-round snapping.

Philip.

+1 for the v5 Summicron, perhaps one of my favourite lenses ever. To me, its rendering on my M11 looks gentler, more “natural” and a very good starting point towards the more filmic look that I often like as my printed output. And equally when I study just how much detail it’s also recording in the middle of the frame, it’s incredible. “High resolution yet gentle” is how I think of it.

The main downside for me for some subjects is its field curvature. Maybe I’m doing something wrong and not understanding planes of focus, but no f-stop seems to counteract the field curvature for infinity shots of (say) landscapes. So I end up with the pin sharp elements being the centre at far away + and also the bottom edges are pin sharp at only about 20 feet away, like a horseshoe. Is there a way to focus to counteract it, or is it just what it is? For many other subjects, like street, it’s really good to have the field curvature, given it feels more like you’re walking into the shot.

 

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[hansvons]

11 hours ago, CP93 said:

I'm thinking maybe either the Planar or an Elmar to start,

The 50mm Planar shares the same double Gauss design with the 50mm Summicron.  

[hansvons]

4 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

So I end up with the pin sharp elements being the centre at far away + and also the bottom edges are pin sharp at only about 20 feet away, like a horseshoe.

I love curvature on my 35mm Summicron for the reasons you described. However, my 50mm V4 (same optics) doesn’t show that in the same way and certainly diminishes entirely at f/4 and infinity. What strikes me is that you say bottom edges. Are the top corners/edges not affected? If so, your lens is de-centered.