TTL flash on M10 - Few options, and how well do they work?

[Jeff-w]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi folks, I have traded in my Olympus cameras and many lenses for a simple (and very used) M10 with a couple of nice lenses and could not be happier with the drastic change and simplification, except in the area of fill flash, which has left me confused a bit. Please, any insight would be helpful!

What I really want is TTL (or some other type of automatic) flash without a pre-flash, and I'd like to have two units: a larger flash for daytime fill for group shots (shooting outdoor music etc) and a small on-camera flash for travel type stuff. This worked perfectly and automatically on my Olympus cameras with both my big flash as well as the tiny little camera-powered flash, both filled in the subject automatically, you could bounce etc, all you had to do was turn it on and it just worked. There was never a pre-flash, so the photo happened in the instant you wanted it to without annoying everyone or missing the moment. Photography is a hobby for me with a limited side-hustle, so I don't do studio work, more of a pack-a-bag and meet folks on location type of thing.

For the Leica M10 I have yet to buy any flashes because I'm having trouble figuring out what will work. There is a Godox (or Flashpoint) wireless TTL flash trigger available, but I don't understand which flashes will work with it for TTL on a Leica, since Godox doesn't make any actual flashes that are compatible with Leica TTL. Has anyone used this wireless transmitter combined with a Godox flash made for Nikon or something like that - it works? Does this Godox system use a pre-flash perhaps?  My other thought is to just get a Nikon TTL off-camera flash cable and use it with a Leica SF40 or SF60 (the Nikon cables have pins in the same place as Leica, and for some inexplicable reason there are no off-camera cables made specifically for Leica). That would be okay with the camera in one hand and flash in the other. All of these options are gigantic though, and so I'm also looking at the SF24D or the SF20 for travel, both of which are discontinued but you can still get used ones. I'm confused about which, if any, of these options would have a preflash. Any experience with this? I am reluctant to spend such a ridiculous amount of money on two plastic flash guns with red dots on them when it isn't clear to me how well they will even work, or if I'd be just as well off with a Godox wireless trigger system, if it actually works with TTL. But, getting a godox flash and not being able to mount the flash on the shoe would be annoying, too. Ugh.

I am currently using a Godox Junior, which is wonderfully small and fun, but limited because I have to stick with a specific ISO/aperture combination for Automatic mode to work, so if you're working with filling a backlit subject in daylight you still have to go into manual mode and adjust based on your distance (the auto mode on the Junior just measures the distance to your subject with a little sensor and it assumes you're at iso 100 and f2.8, which you cannot adjust, so auto mode can't compete with daylight at a sync speed of 1/180). I really don't want a manual system where I have to take five test photos and guess-and-check flash settings; no thank you.

Another possibility: I used to love the automatic mode on the old thyristor flashes, so simple, you just set a dial on the back of the flash based on whatever aperture and iso settings you're using, but it doesn't seem like they make those anymore, and the old ones made for film cameras will fry digital cameras (not a myth, I have verified this to be true!!).

I'm very frustrated that a small portable automatic flash seems to be a neglected area for Leica. Any insights would be appreciated! Thanks for your time!

 

[jaapv]

It is very simple. Leica flashes from SF 24 D onwards,i.e. SF 26 , SF40, etc. will work in TTL. Other brand flashes won’t. Period. An M camera cannot work in TTL without a preflash.
The Nikon cable works -like you note- as the connections are in the same position. However that does not change the discrepancy in flash protocol. 
There is a Godox solution but that involves a trigger. 
Leica cameras will not be fried by old flashes. The circuits are built for 600V trigger voltage. SCA flashes like the Metz  Series work just fine in thyristor mode, I gave been using them on SCA adapters like SCA 3501, 351, 343, on Digital M cameras for ages. The 
mid users want to have belt and braces for flash, just use a Wein sync. I never bothered. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Jeff-w]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is very simple. Leica flashes from SF 24 D onwards,i.e. SF 26 , SF40, etc. will work in TTL. Other brand flashes won’t. Period. An M camera cannot work in TTL without a preflash.
The Nikon cable works -like you note- as the connections are in the same position. However that does not change the discrepancy in flash protocol. 
There is a Godox solution but that involves a trigger. 
Leica cameras will not be fried by old flashes. The circuits are built for 600V trigger voltage. SCA flashes like the Metz  Series work just fine in thyristor mode, I gave been using them on SCA adapters like SCA 3501, 351, 343, on Digital M cameras for ages. The 
mid users want to have belt and braces for flash, just use a Wein sync. I never bothered. 

Thank you!! This totally cleared everything up. The M10 cannot do TTL without a preflash, but the hot shoe on the M10 is designed to be able to take the high voltage from the old thyristor flashes, so now I know exactly what to do!  

[jaapv]

Yes-and as I said, the old Metz SCA system works best, to the extent that some SCA 3000 flashes on SCA 3501 will even recognize the focal length. Only a few  very old flashes will have a high voltage. 
https://www.botzilla.com/page/strobeVolts.html

[dugby]

I happily use a Leica SF26 in TTL mode on my M10-R, and get full FEC control by the camera menu’s over the SF26.

 

For both daylight fill-in or night events it works beautifully in TTL mode on my M10-R

I’m also using the SF26 as a slave flash sitting a top of a Leica X2 and using the X2’s in-built primary flash as the slave trigger. This is an interesting twin reflector flash combo just like my old Metz 40 MZ3i with SCA3502 which is Leica M certified.

[Jeff-w]

Thanks everyone! To follow up, I decided to get a used Leica SF-24D first, because it's so small, and in addition to TTL it also has a built-in sensor for Auto mode with no preflash (similar function to old thyristor flashes though I'm not sure if the tech is different). In this non-TTL Auto mode the SF-24D allows you to set any aperture value, too, which is really nice compared to the old flashes that usually only have one or two settings. AND, this is what sold me: it is supposed to be able to do high speed sync pretty intuitively and automatically without having to go into menus. It's a real bummer that Leica doesn't make a small functional flash like the SF-24D anymore; I'm a big fan of having something small that will always be in my bag; there looks to be lots of shops selling them on ebay, so that's good news. And for times that I need more power and a swivel/tilt head, I guess I'll keep an eye out for an SF-40 or Metz (or more likely I'll just use the Sunpak thyristor flash that I already have, now that I know it won't fry the M10).

I'm intrigued by Metz flashes with the SCA 3501 base, it seems that might be a keep-an-eye-on-ebay-for-a-few-months kind of thing. It also looks like this system might also work with HSS if it's paired with the right flash unit. Neat!

Thanks! -Jeff 

[sometimesmaybe]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, Jeff-w said:

AND, this is what sold me: it is supposed to be able to do high speed sync

it's my understanding that only SF40 and SF60 can do HSS - and some limited trigger HSS options on profoto and godox (only m10). 

the lack of good HSS flash support is a real weakness for the M line up 

[Jeff-w]

2 hours ago, sometimesmaybe said:

it's my understanding that only SF40 and SF60 can do HSS - and some limited trigger HSS options on profoto and godox (only m10). 

the lack of good HSS flash support is a real weakness for the M line up 

Oh shucks! That's what I get for trusting a random comment in a random forum... yeah, I see what you mean, the manual for the SF-24D does not mention high speed sync anywhere. Uhg nevermind then, I guess the SF-40 is on my shopping list and I'm not as keen on the SF-24D... thanks!

[charlesphoto99]

If you don't mind the size, the Vivitar 285HV has safe voltage (get the HV model) and great auto function. Lots on the used market. 

[Jeff-w]

Just in case someone with the same question as me finds this thread: I bought a used SF-40 and I do not regret it! I did not realize how small it was until I had it in hand. Granted it is not the smallest flash available, but it's much smaller than a standard old-school tilt/swivel flash. It's really well balanced on the M10.  I attached a picture of my M10 with the SF-40 on it, and I put my old standard the Sunpak 383 to the right for scale.

High speed sync works flawlessly with the SF-40 in both Auto mode and TTL mode on the M10. Fill flash in full summer sunlight is no problem, I just shot some test photos at 1/2000 s in both Auto and TTL and they both came out fine.

The auto exposure also works well in both Auto and in TTL mode. I was confused about how Auto could work (it uses the sensor on the flash instead of TTL metering) if there isn't an instruction anywhere on what aperture you should use. I have lens detection turned off. I have no idea how the flash knows what my aperture is but I assume it must be using the camera's estimate of aperture from comparing the ttl exposure meter to the external light sensor. In any case, they magically took something you usually have to be mindful about and made it idiot proof. I can literally just pop the flash on, turn it on, start shooting, and it just works. I did some test shots of a grey wall in Auto mode and got a reasonable exposure at both f/2.8 and at f/11. So, it must have some way of compensating for the aperture.

The preflash for TTL is perceptible. As the photographer I don't really notice the pre-flash, but as a subject I do. It's almost but not quite fast enough to avoid closed eyes. Given that Auto works fine I'll probably just stick with Auto. 

I'm glad I got the SF-40 and not the SF-24D. The swivel/tilt, HSS, and rechargeable AA batteries are all big advantages to the SF-40 and it is small enough to always have in my bag.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[CP93]

Thanks for the photo comparison, it’s helping me decide.

Now if only the googly eyes would light up…

Edited July 15 by CP93

[Jeff-w]

15 minutes ago, CP93 said:

Thanks for the photo comparison, it’s helping me decide.

Now if only the googly eyes would light up…

Lol yeah light-up googly eyes would definitely inspire me to shoot at night more often!

[Siriusone59]

4 hours ago, Jeff-w said:

Lol yeah light-up googly eyes would definitely inspire me to shoot at night more often!

Maybe try these?😀

 https://www.amazon.com/Adhesive-Luminous-Plastic-Stickers-Scrapbooking/dp/B0CNZ1R458/ref=asc_df_B0CNZ1R458/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15840550160533073357&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014720&hvtargid=pla-2281435177418&psc=1&mcid=d9264f286db53a2b8f6cec2ab048f4f6&hvocijid=15840550160533073357-B0CNZ1R458-&hvexpln=73&gad_source=1

[7enderbender]

Ok - this is all great info for a Leica newbie like me. Thanks. 
And I figured instead of opening another and since I’m already with the experts here, I’ll drop in a few more questions. 
Again, new to Leica, just got my M10R with a Summilux 50 and I love it. 
I want to keep the kit small looking to get a Elmarit 28 and then call it a day - for everything else I still have my Canon gear. And of course I can alway keep using that one for all things flash, HSS, etc. 

Then again, and apparently very non-typical Leica user - I like the ability to use fill in flash outside and stop down backgrounds in bright sunlight (like we have here a lot in Georgia and Florida). 

Smaller is better for that and with my Canon I always have the little 280 flash in my pocket. Tiny, but can still do HSS even. 
No such option for Leica. Smallest seems to be the SF40 for that and frankly that’s too expensive for what factually is a Nissin flash with limited capabilities. 

What I’ll likely order for the occasional planned portrait shoot outdoors will be the Godox AD100 with the Leica specific remote trigger. Not tiny but at least a workable option. 
 

Reading this here for me thinking that I’ll later pull my old Metz Mecablitz units out of storage. Pretty sure they are CL or CT45s. Looks like there is an SCA adapter available that works with the M10 even for TTL? I’m ok also to just use it manually. I have a dumb SCA connector that has just the center pin. So I figured before spending more money I could just try that and play with some grey filters instead of using HSS. What voltages are safe? I have the table somewhere which unit has what. Never had an issue with my Canon EOS cameras in that regard and I think they are actually more finicky. 
 

Am I missing something? 

p.s. If I were to get the SF40, do I see it correctly that it doesn’t work with the Leica remote? Any others (maintaining HSS)? How about a designated cable hotshoe to SF40 for handheld or putting it on a stand?

 

Edited July 17 by 7enderbender

[sometimesmaybe]

5 minutes ago, 7enderbender said:

What I’ll likely order for the occasional planned portrait shoot outdoors will be the Godox AD100 with the Leica specific remote trigger. Not tiny but at least a workable option. 

i dont have a m10 but have a look at this thread 

godox is also about to launch the x3 trigger for leica. not sure re compatibility, but it's coming apparently 

[Jeff-w]

36 minutes ago, 7enderbender said:

Am I missing something? 

p.s. If I were to get the SF40, do I see it correctly that it doesn’t work with the Leica remote? Any others (maintaining HSS)? How about a designated cable hotshoe to SF40 for handheld or putting it on a stand?

 

If I understand correctly and you want to shoot portraits with fill flash in full sunlight, without HSS, and you want to open up the aperture, yeah I should think that would work great some ND filters and any manual flash (especially if you're using a soft box in daylight, you'd need a somewhat heafty flash).

If by the Leica remote you mean the SF C1 wireless trigger, that looks like it only triggers the SF-60 which is a much larger flash than the SF-40. The SF-40 does have S1 and S2 modes.  You could use any wireless trigger and receiver in manual mode, though, of course. Or like you said go with Godox, though that will only have ttl off camera and not on camera. Or just use a wired cable with the SF-40 (small) or SF-60 (huge) - the TTL off-camera flash cables made for Nikon work with Leica because the pins are in the same place.

I also want to mention that yes I agree the $560 price on the SF-40 is really unreasonable, but I got a used one in perfect like-new condition for $360 from one of the many trustworthy Japanese camera shops selling on a popular online auction website. Still expensive but there's nothing else that checks all the boxes for me. I almost got the smaller SF-24D but the lack of HSS and the weird batteries turned me off, and the SF-24D (used) is more expensive used than the SF-40 anyway.

Honestly, the thyristor-based auto mode on my old Sunpak 383 exposes just as well on the M10 as the fancy new SF-40 with TTL (on-camera). The only things I gained with the SF-40 was the smaller size and the high speed sync (and the ability to just leave everything in auto and not have to think about it - that convenience shouldn't be overlooked!).

[Anbaric]

On 7/15/2024 at 9:26 PM, Jeff-w said:

The auto exposure also works well in both Auto and in TTL mode. I was confused about how Auto could work (it uses the sensor on the flash instead of TTL metering) if there isn't an instruction anywhere on what aperture you should use. I have lens detection turned off. I have no idea how the flash knows what my aperture is but I assume it must be using the camera's estimate of aperture from comparing the ttl exposure meter to the external light sensor. In any case, they magically took something you usually have to be mindful about and made it idiot proof. I can literally just pop the flash on, turn it on, start shooting, and it just works. I did some test shots of a grey wall in Auto mode and got a reasonable exposure at both f/2.8 and at f/11. So, it must have some way of compensating for the aperture.

It is confusing (the manual doesn't explain  it very well!), but I don't think 'A' mode works like this on the SF-40. As far as I can tell, it isn't the traditional Auto mode we might expect (this flash doesn't appear to have a built-in sensor - that thing on the front is an AF assist light), but is instead another TTL mode using the camera's own flash metering. That would explain why it works so well without having to select an aperture. The difference between 'A' and 'TTL' on this flash seems to be that 'TTL' allows the option of flash exposure compensation, and 'A' doesn't. The SF-40 inherits these unintuitive mode names from the Nissin i40 it is based on.

[dugby]

7 hours ago, 7enderbender said:

I want to keep the kit small looking to get a Elmarit 28 and then call it a day - for everything else I still have my Canon gear. And of course I can alway keep using that one for all things flash, HSS, etc. 

Then again, and apparently very non-typical Leica user - I like the ability to use fill in flash outside and stop down backgrounds in bright sunlight (like we have here a lot in Georgia and Florida). 

Smaller is better for that and with my Canon I always have the little 280 flash in my pocket. Tiny, but can still do HSS even. 
No such option for Leica. Smallest seems to be the SF40 for that and frankly that’s too expensive for what factually is a Nissin flash with limited capabilities. 

What I’ll likely order for the occasional planned portrait shoot outdoors will be the Godox AD100 with the Leica specific remote trigger. Not tiny but at least a workable option. 
 

Reading this here for me thinking that I’ll later pull my old Metz Mecablitz units out of storage. Pretty sure they are CL or CT45s. Looks like there is an SCA adapter available that works with the M10 even for TTL? I’m ok also to just use it manually. I have a dumb SCA connector that has just the center pin. So I figured before spending more money I could just try that and play with some grey filters instead of using HSS. What voltages are safe? I have the table somewhere which unit has what. Never had an issue with my Canon EOS cameras in that regard and I think they are actually more finicky. 
 

The smallest TTL compatible flash for an M10 is the Leica SF26 (FW 1.1), which uses two AAA batteries, and integrates FEC superbly on my M10-R.

 

As for SCA adaptors on a Metz, I have the latest (&last)  SCA3502-5 attached to my Mecablitz 40 MZ-3i which has  a TTL setting, but is not supported and does not work as TTL with an 40 MZ-3i on an M digital, which is documented in the SCA3502-5 PDF User Guide.   This is the very reason as to why I bought the SF26, as I wanted the smallest lightest TTL capable flash for my M10-R

The PDF does show some other Mecablitz CL and CT flashes as supporting TTL - good luck with those.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited July 18 by dugby

[Jeff-w]

11 hours ago, Anbaric said:

It is confusing (the manual doesn't explain  it very well!), but I don't think 'A' mode works like this on the SF-40. As far as I can tell, it isn't the traditional Auto mode we might expect (this flash doesn't appear to have a built-in sensor - that thing on the front is an AF assist light), but is instead another TTL mode using the camera's own flash metering. That would explain why it works so well without having to select an aperture. The difference between 'A' and 'TTL' on this flash seems to be that 'TTL' allows the option of flash exposure compensation, and 'A' doesn't. The SF-40 inherits these unintuitive mode names from the Nissin i40 it is based on.

Oh I see, yes I can verify this. The SF40 also does a preflash in A mode. A is the same as TTL. Bah, oh well. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Luke_Miller]

I have several older Nikon flashes that work in Auto mode on my digital M bodies.  I also have the Leica SF-58 which works in both TTL and Auto.