Which monochrom

[a.noctilux]

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1 hour ago, High_n_Dry said:

I have a M11 and went with a M246

Happy reading this.

I don't have/need M11 but M246 is good enough (and beyon) for me.

In real use, real life of course.

Edited July 1, 2024 by a.noctilux

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[Rollei35]

I have/had Q2, M10R and M11.

i can tell you this: go with M10M

[BWColor]

I’ve never used the M10 Monochrom, but I have been traveling with an M11 Monochrom and a Hasselblad X2D 100c.  Both cameras share features unrelated to image quality.  Those features consist of being able to charge the camera via USB C and a battery bank.  Both cameras wirelessly transfer images to my iPhone where they can be processed by a mobile app .. I use Lightroom.. and then I upload to my Flickr account where my wife, 7000 miles away can view the days activity.  Yes, I aim for the image that I want on my wall, or at a minimum, an image worth including in a photo book.  Admittedly, most images fall short of the mark.  My M10 Monochrom friend would love for his camera to have the same functionality, but he isn’t going to buy an M11M because the M10M makes great images and so a used M10M would be a great choice.

Edited July 11, 2024 by BWColor
Clarity

[Martin B]

I can't say anything about the M10M or M11M since I have never used either. I opted two years ago for the MM 246 instead and never looked back - best price/quality performance of Leica monochrome cameras on the market currently. It has about +1 stop increase in ISO range over the M 240 series - I was able to use the MM 246 at ISO 6400 without any severe noise issue in the image. If higher ISO than this is needed or preferred, successor camera models like the M10M are a better choice. Other than sensor resolution - 24MP with the MM 246 - and a bit less of dynamic range, the MM 246 fits the bill. One major debit of the M 240-based FF sensor is its highlight clipping - since the Bayer array is removed in the MM 246, the sensor is more sensitive to light. There is visibly more detail in highlights captured with the MM 246 compared to the M 240 (I tested it since I also have the M-E 240 camera).   

I like that the monochrome sensor works very well for IR photography, too - at ISO 3200, I can take IR photos handheld with R72 mounted on the lens at f/5.6 with reasonably fast shutter speeds. I suspect that this older type camera has less of a strong ICF filter on top of the sensor to cut off infrared light. More modern cameras' ICF filters are much stronger - I haven't seen a side-by-side comparison between the MM 246 and M10M / M11M regarding ease to take IR photos handheld. Leica did not remove the ICF filter when the Bayer pattern of the sensor got removed - it is as present as in the color sensor camera model in the same series (stronger ICF filters make colors pop more in regular cameras). 

[RexGig0]

I own neither the M10 Monochrom nor M11 Monochrom, but felt compelled to mention a comparative high-ISO test helped me to decide to remain with the M Type 246 Monochrom, rather than buy an M10 Monochrom. (I also have an original M10, but, it does not beat the 246, in low-light, high-ISO shooting.) Something keeps preventing me from posting a link. Go to reddotforum.com , and look for the article “B&W ISO SHOWDOWN 2020: LEICA M10 MONOCHROM VS. M MONOCHROM (TYP 246) VS. M10-P VS. SL2.”

I am not saying that upgrading to a more-recent Monochrom would not provide improved performance. My point is that an older camera can compete well, with its “successor,” in realistic conditions. (My personal cost-versus-benefit analysis resulted in my continuing to add some good lenses, rather than a new version of a digital M camera.) Having said that, I am keeping an eye on the pricing trends of pre-owned M10 Monochrom cameras. 

i will note that Leica upped the battery capacity, in the M11 series. The BP-SCL5 battery, used in M10 cameras, is not one of Leica’s better batteries, being a step downward in performance from the BP-SCL2, used in the 240/246/262-series. Indeed, battery performance is part of why I continue to like using a 246.

 

[jaapv]

Everybody is forgetting the M9M - which is the king for me. All the others are progressively smooth and digital.

[Jeff S]

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I have the M9M and M10M. Neither is about high ISO for me.  My M10R and SL2 are sufficient for that, for my needs.

Jeff

Edited July 21, 2024 by Jeff S

[jaapv]

Of course the ISO capability is at least one EV value higher than the corresponding Bayer camera, with a more organic look I don't hesitate to shoot the M9M at ISO 10.000

[250swb]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:58 AM, PaulJohn said:

I’d like to add a monochrome camera to my arsenal and am deciding between the Q2M, the M10M and the M11M.

As far as price is concerned I want o avoid depreciation more than I want to avoid spending more.

 

If you want to avoid spending more money convert colour files from a Leica camera you have into monochrome files. Don't get caught up in the whole 'the camera helping you to see in B&W' thing, if you can watch a B&W cinema movie you can also imagine how things look in B&W. 

Edited July 21, 2024 by 250swb

[jaapv]

Leatherman Tools depreciate least. Discontinued models command crazy prices. 

[Jeff S]

On 7/21/2024 at 4:36 PM, 250swb said:

Don't get caught up in the whole 'the camera helping you to see in B&W' thing, if you can watch a B&W cinema movie you can also imagine how things look in B&W. 

We’ve covered this ad nauseam.  People vary, but I certainly don’t need a monochrome based camera to help me see in B&W.  Decades with B&W film served that purpose well. But just like when shooting with B&W film, I like the benefit of not being tempted by, or distracted by, potential color pics.  It’s as simple as that, for me, and it’s what I mean when I talk about a B&W mindset.  Others’ MMV.
 

Jeff

[250swb]

7 hours ago, Jeff S said:

We’ve covered this ad nauseam.  People vary, but I certainly don’t need a monochrome based camera to help me see in B&W.  Decades with B&W film served that purpose well. But just like when shooting with B&W film, I like the benefit of not being tempted by, or distracted by, potential color pics.  It’s as simple as that, for me, and it’s what I mean when I talk about a B&W mindset.  Others’ MMV.
 

Jeff

Perhaps that's the problem (if there is one) where photographers flit around like a bird who can't decide if colour or B&W is the bigger worm. So the easiest way to see in B&W would be to have a plan and stick to it.

[RexGig0]

Regarding “depreciation,” the prices of pre-owned M10 Monochrom cameras seem to still be declining.

M Type 246 Monochrom prices were in decline, then stabilized, or even went slightly upward, for a time, perhaps last year, but I have not recently (Late 2023, into 2024) paid much attention, because I have not been wanting to buy more M 246 cameras, nor sell what I have.

If pre-owned M11 Monochrom prices follow prior patterns, there will be a significant hit, about the time owners start anticipating the release of an M12 Monochrom.

I do not consider digital cameras to be “investments,” but consumable items. I best realize my investment of money, spent on a digital camera, by using it until “the wheels fall off.” It does, of course, make sense to let a first owner suffer the initial depreciation. My only Leica camera, bought new, thus far, has been my original M10, and it is likely to retain that status. My only Leica lens, bought new, thus far, has been a “Re-Edition” Summilux-M 35mm Steel Rim, and it may well retain that status.

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, 250swb said:

Perhaps that's the problem (if there is one) where photographers flit around like a bird who can't decide if colour or B&W is the bigger worm. So the easiest way to see in B&W would be to have a plan and stick to it.

My pics are always intentionally color or B&W when shooting, typically at a slow pace. Seeing in B&W is not a problem (fortunately, since the world is in color); maybe for some others. There’s a difference between intentionality and spontaneity; either or both can be part of one’s style, without any indecision, and without any inability to see in B&W…at least for me. With B&W film, or a monochrome sensor, I like not having a choice; that’s all. Others have different styles and approaches; I don’t lose sleep over what makes them tick. They can flit around or not all day; doesn’t affect my ability or enjoyment…or resultant pics or prints, which is ultimately all that matters; the rest is personal process.  The world is full of bad photographers, irrespective of approach. 

Jeff

[colint544]

On 7/21/2024 at 3:36 PM, jaapv said:

Everybody is forgetting the M9M - which is the king for me. All the others are progressively smooth and digital.

There is definitely something 35mm filmic about the output from the original M9M. More recent Monochroms seem to to be increasingly headed towards the detail and tonality of large format. It's an impressive feat, but I suppose it just means we can now choose the M Monochrom type that suits our needs best.

If anyone hasn't yet seen the work of Sarah and Jeff Ascough, this short video is well worth a watch. Sarah and Jeff have stuck doggedly with their M9M cameras year in, year out. Here, Sarah goes out and about, and demonstrates what is possible with an M9M in skilled hands. Her pictures are wonderful.

Edited July 24, 2024 by colint544

[costa43]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:58 AM, PaulJohn said:

So it’s M10M vs M11M on depreciation, shooting experience, filmic files, chance to share batteries and charger and weight.

Depreciation - m10m will depreciate less over the next few years for sure.

shooting experience - toss up. If you prefer the metering of the m11 gen then maybe that gets the nod. I prefer m10 gen for nicer shutter and a little quicker start up. The battery life is a big plus with the m11.

filmic files - every time a new generation of M comes out, people will say the previous gen was more filmic. If you want real filmic, get the OG, the m9m. Love that camera.

Sharing equipment is a plus for the m11. 
 

I think the m10 gen will go down as Leicas finest hour in digital M so I’m a little biased but best of luck with your decision making!

 

[Martin B]

To my knowledge, the M9M is as plagued with sensor corrosion issues as the original M9. Even if the sensor was replaced, there is no full certainty that the same issue won't repeat with the replacement sensor (even it might be less common/likely). Seeing [collector] prices for M9 series camera bodies, I would rather go with the M246 if not being interested to purposely have some more noise at higher ISO numbers in the photos with the M9M series. I own and use the M246 camera, but I wouldn't claim these files being more filmic. The M240 color files on the other hand - yes they are due to more cyan bluish color cast and more vibrant yellow and orange tones out of the camera. For monochrome files, this vanishes - maybe the M 246 files are more contrasty directly from camera as the ones from M10M and M11M successor models - not sure. 

[Jeff S]

26 minutes ago, Martin B said:

 Even if the sensor was replaced, there is no full certainty that the same issue won't repeat with the replacement sensor (even it might be less common/likely). 

Only for early replacements, before Leica implemented a final solution.  I’ve heard zero reports, here or elsewhere, of a corrosion issue for any Leica replacement after that. 
 

Jeff

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[Jon Warwick]

2 hours ago, costa43 said:

filmic files - every time a new generation of M comes out, people will say the previous gen was more filmic. If you want real filmic, get the OG, the m9m. Love that camera.

 

 

A number of people have said that re the M9M. I know the v 246 and M10M the most, with a more casual use of the M9M.

My main observation is all Monochroms are more filmic (more natural, less processed) than any Bayer colour camera that I’ve ever used in terms of rendering. All the Monochroms are wonderful in that regard, even with perceived nuances among them, IMHO.

Edited July 25, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[costa43]

56 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

A number of people have said that re the M9M. I know the v 246 and M10M the most, with a more casual use of the M9M.

My main observation is all Monochroms are more filmic (more natural, less processed) than any Bayer colour camera that I’ve ever used in terms of rendering. All the Monochroms are wonderful in that regard, even with perceived nuances among them, IMHO.

I agree they all produce beautiful files but I’m a big fan of the ccd sensors and feel their output fits the digital Leica M ethos the best. The m9m has something in my eyes that the others do not but I do think the m10m is a far more rounded tool and a joy to use.