The dance of the 50mm f2

[Viv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 6/5/2024 at 10:13 AM, colonel said:

Voigtlander 50mm f2 apo VM 

Leica 50mm f2 summicron new 

Zeiss 50mm f2 ZM

Anyone had all or some and can give comparison thoughts ?

 

I do not have "all or some". I only have the Zeiss, so cannot provide "comparison thoughts".

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[pippy]

4 hours ago, colonel said:

...It has come down to summicron vs voigtlander apo. I am tilting to a new cron, but was put off by the comment “soft”...

FWIW I've rattled-off a quick 'Torture Test' frame shot (just hand-held and under very non-studio conditions!) using a 40 year-old v4 Summicron at Max. Aperture and Min Focus. Camera was an M-D Typ-262 so no in-built profiles were applied and image is effectively SOOC.

Bear in mind that due to Forum constraints the image has been saved as an 'Image Quality 10' JPEG so the real thing is sharper;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

As mentioned at the start of this post it was rattled-off just to give an idea of what might be expected. I cannot even be certain that I was standing perfectly parallel to the bookcase so there might possibly be a bit of 'nearer at one side than the other' going on.

I am sure that under tightly-controlled test conditions the APO would be sharper in the corners and so on than this Summicron but there is a world of a difference between shooting a v2 35mm Summilux wide-open - which IS soft! - and this lens. When used in a Real World situation? I don't envisage ever needing anything 'better' than this can provide.

Philip.

Edited June 6, 2024 by pippy

[lct]

When i say "harsh" about both Summicron apo and Planar i mean those are lenses that exhibit all little skin imperfections of my models. It might please some photogs but i would not shoot people i like with them. The strength (to me) of lenses like Summicron 50/2 v4 or v5 (or Hexanon 50/2) is they can be as sharp as i need but when i shoot some of my relatives i crank down my apertures to f/2 and i don't risk divorce or facing domestic scenes with them 😄 YMMV.

Edited June 6, 2024 by lct

[Alberti]

The issue of sharpness and MTF surpasses my understanding.

I had (😢) a 35mm Summicron v4, it was sharp. I have the 35 Summilux which is sharp too, but very different. If you look at the MTF's there is not much difference. But the Cron IV could separate a world class better from the background. Busy or not. 

I have the 50 Cron V and it is lovely. Sharp. Nice bokeh. Again, if you look at the MTF's of the 35 and 50 there is not much difference. On the M8 it was for me too sharp (indeed showing off all small skin details). On the M240 it was easy going. On the Monochrom it is great. They even say the 35 Lux FLE has the same signature as the 50 Cron V. 

Now I have another winner in that class of unwanted harshness in ladies skin - the 75 Summarit. In comparison the 50 Cron is gentle . . .  

The main problem I have with those modern lenses (the 50 Lux FLE/BC) is the very very undedtectable plane of focus and then yes then the rendering of foreground details start to become annoying in some lenses. Then I like the initial Gausses much more. Foregiving. Better said: I gave back the 50 Lux FLE/BC as giving too many near misses. 

So my focus would be (pun intended) on the focal plane not the bokeh. How smooth is that? The post #6 (Costa 43) is indeed lacking a clear focus to me while it clearly has had the intention of being focussed. (riddle...) 

Picture this: 50mm Summicron V, which by the way looks very similar to the Summilux II at F2

I would take this lens over the others in post #1 any time

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited June 6, 2024 by Alberti

[crons]

Two best things you can do to your leica. These are the only 2 lenses I own. I need nothing else. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Chris Nebard]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

Perhaps we should keep things in perspective? The regular 50mm Summicron could hardly be described as having "soft" rendering by normal standards even at f2.0.

Here is an extract (written before the APO had been released) regarding the behaviour of the v4 / v5 50mm Summicron by the very-highly regarded Leica lens expert Erwin Puts;

"Optically the current Summicron can still claim to be the world's best 50mm lens. This is not the same as saying that the Summicron 50mm is the best lens in the world. It is a very versatile lens, that performs very well in close up and infinity settings and at intermediate distances and at every aperture. You can use it without reservation at f2 and 70cm and can expect excellent quality......The current Summicron offers performance that exceeds the capabilities of most users."

If you wish to read the whole article here is the link;

https://photo.imx.nl/leica/lenses/lenses/page92.html

Philip.

Exactly, perfectly put, I couldn’t agree more. Your point on maintaining perspective when comparing excellence with excellence, particularly when it comes to “sharpness”, is often overlooked.  And, in my personal experience, the insights and opinions of the late, great,  Mr Puts were always considered and knowledgeable.  He once took the trouble to respond, directly, to a question I had asked of him and it helped my understanding enormously at the time. 
 

The Summicron 50mm V4/5 is as sharp as I, personally, want any lens to be. It achieves a detailed clarity but, crucially, at the same time gives me that organic look and gentle fall-off into the out of focus areas which enhances the overall effect. As you indicate, this shouldn’t be confused with “softness”. Contrast and colours are lovely throughout the aperture range. Do I always achieve the look I’m after? No, because I am nowhere near as good a photographer as this lens is, as an optic. I’ve been a serious photographer since the early 1970s and I’ve been through a lot of gear. It is my favourite lens of all time. It is an absolute beauty; it’s rightly seen as a reference for all other fifties, and I for one am delighted Leica recognises that something as legendary as this doesn’t need any meaningful change to the 1979 Mandler design. Outstanding. 

[Chris Nebard]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

31 minutes ago, Alberti said:

The issue of sharpness and MTF surpasses my understanding.

I had (😢) a 35mm Summicron v4, it was sharp. I have the 35 Summilux which is sharp too, but very different. If you look at the MTF's there is not much difference. But the Cron IV could separate a world class better from the background. Busy or not. 

I have the 50 Cron V and it is lovely. Sharp. Nice bokeh. Again, if you look at the MTF's of the 35 and 50 there is not much difference. On the M8 it was for me too sharp (indeed showing off all small skin details). On the M240 it was easy going. On the Monochrom it is great. They even say the 35 Lux FLE has the same signature as the 50 Cron V. 

Now I have another winner in that class of unwanted harshness in ladies skin - the 75 Summarit. In comparison the 50 Cron is gentle . . .  

The main problem I have with those modern lenses (the 50 Lux FLE/BC) is the very very undedtectable plane of focus and then yes then the rendering of foreground details start to become annoying in some lenses. Then I like the initial Gausses much more. Foregiving. Better said: I gave back the 50 Lux FLE/BC as giving too many near misses. 

So my focus would be (pun intended) on the focal plane not the bokeh. How smooth is that? The post #6 (Costa 43) is indeed lacking a clear focus to me while it clearly has had the intention of being focussed. (riddle...) 

Picture this: 50mm Summicron V, which by the way looks very similar to the Summilux II at F2

I would take this lens over the others in post #1 any time

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Great examples: illustrating (simultaneously - and magically to me!) the sharp but gentle way this lens behaves. Nice one 👍

[bourne]

Enjoying my 35/2 (non APO) summicron.... next purchase will be 50/2 (non APO) summicron.  Love the size, build quality, and of course, the image quality!

[TomB_tx]

I bought my 35 & 50 Summicrons in 1969 to go with the 90 TE i bought with my M4 in 1968. Those were my only M lenses until the 21st century. Used 50 75%, 35 24% - really all the lenses I needed then. If I lost all the lenses I've bought since then and went back to these I'd be fine.

[JoshuaR]

Interesting discussion. I’ve used the 50 Cron v5 and now own a 50 Summarit f/2.5 and 50 Lux ASPH. There’s a lot that I really like about the 50 Lux, and it’s been my everyday 50 paired with my 28 Summicron v1 for a while now. But I’m getting closer and closer to selling both the 50 Lux and 50 Summarit and returning to the 50 Cron, perhaps the v4, which I’ve never owned. 

I have no complaints at all about the 50 Summilux ASPH—clearly, it’s a superlative lens—but I’ve discovered a few things about my own preferences and capabilities. First, I miss a lot of shots at f/1.4. I’m often photographing my kids and they never stop moving; for practical reasons I’m almost always shooting at f/2.8. And, second, I’m not sure that I actually like the very thin focal plane of the Lux at wide apertures. This is especially true when I print my pictures. Onscreen, I tend to enjoy the kind of portrait in which only the eyes are in focus. But, in print, I find that I want the whole face. On YouTube, Generic Photographer’s really excellent comparison of Lux and Cron shows that the Lux has a thinner focal plane than the Cron at equivalent apertures—that is, you’ll get more of a face in focus at f/2 with the Cron than with the Lux, but you’ll still have the subject separation of an f/2 image. Looking through my own images in Lightroom, I find that this is true of the portraits I’ve shot with both lenses.

I’m going to order a 50 Cron v4, try it out side by side with the 50 Lux ASPH, and then decide….

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, JoshuaRothman said:

I’m going to order a 50 Cron v4, try it out side by side with the 50 Lux ASPH, and then decide….

Leica SF Store has one, but 15% restocking fee for returns.  Potentially a lot cheaper to rent a v.5 from Lensrentals.

Jeff
 

 

[pedaes]

4 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

I’m going to order a 50 Cron v4,

If you are comfortable with the weight of the Summilux it will be sharper at 2.8 than the v4 (or v5) - but as said earlier maximum 'sharpness' is not for everyone.

[Stuart Richardson]

Back with the Summilux ASPH came out, I had a Summicron V5. I compared them to each other (on film, at the time), and I could not really see any significant difference other than the physical differences and the fact that the Summilux ASPH had an extra stop. I think that the differences between the Summicron, Planar and Summilux ASPH are all fairly subtle in most cases. More recently I got the 50mm APO VM to use on the M10M. It is significantly sharper than any of those other lenses. The build quality is excellent and to me it handles extremely well. The honest truth is that any one of these lenses is capable for any photographic task, though they have some differences. I would say the 50mm Summicron V5 is a great balance of optical performance with excellent compactness and ergonomics. The 50mm APO VM is bigger and heavier, but for me at least it is not a significant difference. It is, however, quite a bit sharper at the wider apertures, and the lack of color aberrations and fringing is very nice.

It is a bit harder to answer the question because you don't say what you are shooting: film, digital, color or black and white, and if digital, which body. I would say that if you have a 40mp+ M and want it to be future proof, I would consider the Voigtlander. If you are using film, you are unlikely to see any major differences.

[crons]

The issue I found with the Apo-lanthar other than the size and weight, is that after a while I got bored. You get the exact same image at every aperture. So it really depends on application. Since I'm not shooting landscapes I want something with at least a little bit of personality. Also smaller and lighter. 

Once I took a photo of tiny bees on a flower. The APO-LANTHAR is so sharp you could see the veins in the wings and these things were maybe like 4 or 5mm long. I had to crop in a lot. The problem is that sharpness looked like the photo was drawn. Like digital art looking. This lens was sort of one-note for me. Once you get over the novelty of a lens so sharp and almost near perfect optics it just gets really boring. Sometimes you want softness dreamy quality. 

I remember the exact moment i knew i was going to get rid of it and get a summicron. I took a casual snapshot of a little girl up on her toes trying to get something at a Starbucks and when I looked at the raw on the back I said WOW, why this looks so lovely? When I opened it on the big screen to edit it I realized I actually missed focus on her by a couple of inches. So the nicest looking snap from this lens was when I missed focus by a bit. For my use this lens is just too much. 

The Planar I never got along with. Some people send this lens brand new back to the manufacturer to be greased again because of the bad feeling focus. Mine wasn't that bad but it was really rough. Other than that, the IQ out of it as I said is very harsh looking, sometimes people's skin looked like sandpaper, and the contrast sometimes just looking at the raw is like you take the contrast slider in LR to 100%. It was just too much. 

On my 40MP sensor all the little nuances of the 50 summicron are obvious. It's the perfect balance of everything IQ, build quality, feel when you use it (aperture and focusing). For me it is just the perfect 50mm lens for every day use. 

There are many other 50mm lenses all for more niche use cases. 

Edited June 6, 2024 by crons

[RexGig0]

I started Leica M shooting with a Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, the lens which was THE reason I added the Leica M system. I found this one pre-owned, at the nearby Leica dealer, and tested-shot it on pre-owned and demonstrator M9 and M Type 240 cameras, during several visits, to make sure that this was something that I really wanted to do, because I had to scupper long-standing plans to acquire a 400mm or 600mm Nikon “super telephoto” lens, in order to fund the Summilux and a camera body. (I was still rehabilitating a left shoulder injury, so, being unable to handle a heavy telephoto lens, I had time to experiment with something else.) I had originally stumbled across Summilix-M 50mm images, on-line, several years earlier, while on a site that also reviewed Nikon cameras and lenses.

I later added a pre-owned Summicron-M 50mm lens, with the 1979 optics and “Version V” coatings, so that I could shoot in the aperture range and background conditions that would cause the Summilux to produce the saw-tooth-shaped out-of-focus highlights, and because the ‘Cron was somewhat more compact. Plus, I chose a 50-Jahre Special Edition, with an exterior appearance reminiscent of the earlier Rigid Summicron.

In actual practice, the compact size of the Summicron never became a factor, because I soon added an Elmar-M 50mm, a very sharp lens that is even smaller than a Summicron. This one allows the camera to be carried inside a large pocket of very small pouch, when the lens is collapsed.

Somewhere along the way, I added a Summilux-R 50mm Version I, converted by Skyllaney to rangefinder-coupled M mount, as a way to get a specific type of vintage look.

In 2022, I acquired a Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 Aspherical, for its own visual character, and, as a way to let more light into a Type 246 Monochrom when shooting with a colored filter, in low light. 

Finally, I acquired the Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar, for the times that veiling flare would be a problem, due to challenging lighting conditions, and/or I need boringly-perfect optical correction. The very pleasing exterior and handling qualities were/are value-added bonuses.

One can never have too many Fifties. 😉 Interestingly, I was not very interested in using 50mm lenses, on full-35mm-format cameras, until I bought my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH.

[crons]

It looked like this on the back of the LCD in Raw. I just added a bit of contrast and some highlight and shadow adjustments but this is pretty much what the raw looked like. 

The 50 summicron lens is nice and sharp, but it doesn't have that extra contrast that ASPH lenses have. There's no visible distortion and the only optical quirk is that flare when the light his it directly. For me it's not an issue in every day use.  

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Here below is yesterday with the 35 Cron ASPH me standing on the other side. Same adjustments to this one, same settings. 

You can see the ASPH contrasty look on the 35f2. I think they make a great pair and you can definitely make them look very similar with adjustments. But I let the character through because I don't like to edit a lot. 

These are both uncropped. The reason I went for the 35f2 ASPH in particular is the low to really almost no distortion. When I took photos here with the 35f1.4 Nokton the look was quite different but the barrel distortion was obvious because of all the straight lines. 

If you use a lens as a companion to the 50 Cron and you want to keep things similar then for me distortion was a priority. Once you shoot with the 50 cron you get used to things being so straight and the way you saw them that distortion really starts bothering you. You get spoiled with the 50. 

Back to the 50 summicron. Here's the same settings again with a lot of sunlight. Looking at the full resolution you can see all the details on the skin. But again sharp without being harsh. 

Here is the raw. Looks the same I just straightened the horizon a little and did a bit of exposure and color but that's it 

Edited June 8, 2024 by crons

[F456]

I have used the 50mm f/2 'cooking' i.e. non-APO Summicrons in v.4 (previous version - with focusing tab) and v.5 (current version - w/o focusing tab but same glass and possibly newer coatings).  Both are superb in my experience but the best advertisement I can point you towards in my opinion is the review by Karl Johan Vogelius at http://gear.vogelius.se/-reviews/leica-summicron-50/index.html

KJ as he calls himself has also used and reviewed Carl Zeiss and Voigtländer lenses for the Leica M system so you may be interested to look at his other lens reviews and excellent photographic examples in use on his travels and with his family, with both 35mm and digital Leicas. He seems to be quite a master of colour in particular.

 

But I am biased as I am half-Swedish...

 

Hope this helps!