28mm Lens for M10/M4

[armevans]

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Hello, Leica-ists!

I've been shooting with an M4 for the past few years and have fallen in love with the Leica/rangefinder experience. This week, I finally ponied up and purchased a used M10 to hopefully supplant my current Fuji mirrorless kit.

Up until this point, I haven't really considered performance on a digital camera when buying M-mount lenses. On the M4, I've been very happy using a v1 Summicron 50/2 (collapsible) and a v2 Summaron 35/3.5, both from the 1950s. I also have a Light Lens Lab Elcan 50/2 that is really lovely and an Elmar-C 90/4 that I bought as a cheap telephoto option. I realize that 1950s lenses (or lens designs, in the case of the Elcan) aren't going to perform like modern, highly corrected lenses on the 24mp sensor, but I'm looking forward to seeing how their character translates to the digital M, particularly given that my copies of the Summicron and Summaron are exceptionally clean (no "cleaning marks" etc. and both CLA'd in the past couple years). If anyone has any experience shooting either of these lenses on an M10, I'd love hear about it!

Now that I have a camera with 28mm framelines, I'd really like to get a 28mm lens. On other camera systems, I'm generally a 50/28 shooter, and while I love the Summaron, I sometimes find it to be a bit too close to my 50s to make an ideal 2-lens kit. If I were still only shooting film, I'd probably be looking for something similar to my Summicron/Summaron kit—maybe an old Canon LTM or some other vintage 28mm. With the M10, I'm wondering whether it might be nice to have something a touch more modern—still something with a bit of character, but maybe something slightly better behaved. If Light Lens Lab made a 28mm, I'd probably go that route as I'm fond of my Elcan, but as it is, I'm considering the current Voigtlander options (the 28/1.5 has really captured my imagination) and the Zeiss Biogon 28/2.8. I'm also tempted by the Elmarit ASPH, but particularly after buying the M10, I'm not sure that I can justify the cost at the moment. Whatever I get will also be used on the M4 to shoot (primarily black and white) film, so that's also a consideration.

So, for those of you who are big 28mm shooters, what are you using, and on what cameras? What's worth considering? What should I avoid? The more 100% crops I stare at and spec sheets I read, the less knowledgeable I feel. Some actual user feedback would be much appreciated.

Cheers!

-A

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by armevans

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[jaapv]

Any of your present lenses wil surprise you pleasantly on the M10. The 28-ers on this forum will chime in, but I can tell you up front that Voigtlander lenses are an excellent choice.  Forget about the pixel peeping and MTF charts leave that to us nerds. Just judge the images lenses produce in the hands of capable photographers. 

[JoshuaR]

Congrats on your M10! The good news about the M system is that pretty much all the lenses are excellent. You really can't go wrong. This means that you can proceed in two ways:

(1) Obsessively research and pixel-peep, looking at bokeh balls, etc.

(2) Just choose a lens you can afford that seems like a good compromise in terms of size, weight, handling, and modern vs. vintage look.

I took route #1 and while I don't regret it, exactly, I wouldn't recommend it. If I wanted a great 28mm lens to start, I'd just buy the Voigtlander Ultron II or Thypoch 28 f/1.4, depending on how much I wanted to trade size for aperture. I'd use it for a while, then decide whether I wanted something different, or was content.

I'm also a 28 / 50 guy and my 'ride or die' pair is a 28mm Summicron ASPH v1 and a 50 Lux ASPH. But the truth is that I'd happily use many many other 28 / 50 pairs. For a long time I used the 28 Elmarit ASPH (modern, super-sharp, awesome) and 50 Cron v5 (a little vintage, also awesome). And before that, I used the Voigtlander 28mm Ultron II and Zeiss 50mm Sonar f/1.5—also fantastic lenses. Honestly, that felt like a kit I could've used forever. I'm not sure how much I really gained by moving to more expensive glass.

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by JoshuaRothman

[armevans]

Just now, jaapv said:

Any of your present lenses wil surprise you pleasantly on the M10. The 28-ers on this forum will chime in, but I can tell you up front that Voigtlander lenses are an excellent choice.  Forget about the pixel peeping and MTF charts leave that to us nerds. Just judge the images lenses produce in the hands of capable photographers. 

Thanks so much, @jaapv! I'm really excited to see how my current lenses do. The times I've adapted them to my Fujifilm cameras, they've pleasantly surprised me, especially in monochrome (though I didn't love the cropped perspective or the experience of manual focusing via the EVF). I'm hoping the full-frame Leica sensor and rangefinder focusing completes the experience. I also think the silver lenses will look pretty nice on the black chrome M10.

It does seem like Voigtlander are knocking it out of the park these days. I owned the Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II for a while, and it was pretty remarkable—fast, lightweight, and very sharp. I didn't always love the rendering compared to the vintage 50s (which skew a bit less contrasty/saturated), but it was still an excellent performer and very fairly priced for all that it offered. Reviews seem to suggest that, if anything, the 28mm Nokton is even more impressive. I don't necessarily need that level of speed, but it doesn't seem to add much (if anything) in terms of size compared to Zeiss, Minolta, or even some of the Leica Elmarits.

[Al Brown]

Check out new player Thypoch Simera 28/1.4, it has the nicest bokeh with the character of a slightly retro lens, but still brand new. Much nicer than Voigt 28/1.5.

[jaapv]

Do take into account, though, that focusing on a sensor takes more narrow tolerances. It may be that your friendly neighbourhood technician will need to calibrate some of your film-era lenses. 

[armevans]

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Just now, JoshuaRothman said:

Congrats on your M10! The good news about the M system is that pretty much all the lenses are excellent. You really can't go wrong. This means that you can proceed in two ways:

(1) Obsessively research and pixel-peep, looking at bokeh balls, etc.

(2) Just choose a lens you can afford that seems like a good compromise in terms of size, weight, handling, and modern vs. vintage look.

Personally, if I wanted a great 28mm lens to start, I'd just buy the Voigtlander Ultron II. I'd use it for a while, then decide whether I wanted something different. Possibly that lens will completely suffice! It's excellent.

I'm also a 28 / 50 guy and my 'ride or die' pair is a 28mm Summicron ASPH v1 and a 50 Lux ASPH. But the truth is that I'd happily use many many other 28 / 50 pairs. For a long time I used the 28 Elmarit ASPH (modern, super-sharp, awesome) and 50 Cron v5 (a little vintage, also awesome). And before that, I used the Voigtlander 28mm Ultron II and Zeiss 50mm Sonar f/1.5—that felt like a kit I could've used forever. I'm not sure how much I really gained by moving to more expensive glass, if I'm honest. I really really love the way the 28mm Summicron ASPH v1 renders—but it's also true that I can't ever sell it, because I dropped it and now it has a glass-less filter ring permanently jammed on the front. It's my forever 28mm lens by default.

Thanks so much for this! Lots of good stuff here. It does feel like there may be a Voigtlander in my future, though I would love to have an Elmarit or Summicron some day.

As an aside, how did you like the Zeiss Sonnar? I'm fascinated by that lens. The images I've seen from it look great, but I know folks complain about the focus shift issues. I keep thinking of buying one, but I'm not sure that I realistically need three 50s. I did have a Jupiter-8 for a while that was shockingly nice for the money. The handling was garbage, and the Zorki I had it on overlapped frames and made all kinds of other problems, but that lens was astounding.

[armevans]

5 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Check out new player Thypoch Simera 28/1.4, it has the nicest bokeh with the character of a slightly retro lens, but still brand new. Much nicer than Voigt 28/1.5.

I'm very intrigued by what Thypoch are doing, but aside from the new collapsible 50, their M-mount lenses just seem too big to me—I worry about finder blockage and balance. I'd be pretty happy with a slower but smaller lens (even the f/3.5 Summaron hasn't practically given me any issues with speed, and it'll be even less limited on a digital body than it is with 250ISO film).

What has your experience been with the Voigtlander 28/1.5? The reviews I've seen have been very positive, but I haven't had a chance to use one. It sounds like you aren't a fan?

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Do take into account, though, that focusing on a sensor takes more narrow tolerances. It may be that your friendly neighbourhood technician will need to calibrate some of your film-era lenses. 

I'm hoping the (relatively) recent CLAs will have both lenses nicely within spec, but if not, then I'll have to look into that. My local camera shop is a Leica stockist and do some repair/servicing, but I've never taken anything there. I've just sent things to YYe or DAG in the past.

[patrickcolpron]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Any of your present lenses wil surprise you pleasantly on the M10. 

I agree wholeheartedly, I prefer older lenses on my digital M. 

But if you want a modern 28, there are two 28 mil lens I can talk about and appreciate their rendering enough to own and use them both, the 28 Lux which is the best fast 28 for the M in my opinion but, out of the question as you mentioned with your recent purchase of the M10.
 

Then there is my actual favorite 28 Leica M lens which can  occasionally be found used for way less than retail;

The 28 Elmarit ASPH, the latest version, it is a pleasure to use for its small size and has great rendering on both analog and digital M cameras.

When I tested the 28 Summicron and the 28 Elmarit, I found the Elmarit to have a better color and out of focus rendering plus, to be sharper (pixel peeped for those test images). 

I never use the 28 Elmarit with the lens hood, it looks great on an M camera and I much prefer smaller lenses over their larger counterparts, makes using an M more enjoyable.

On YouTube Analog Insights did a good review on the 28 Elmarit a couple of years ago. It is easily found. 
 

But I found www.streetsilhouettes.com conclusions when comparing two generations of 28 Elmarit lenses to be on point, and I loosely quote, current generation lenses are significantly and noticeably sharper at high resolution than previous generation lenses, however at normal resolution, the previous generation lenses aren't significantly or noticeably less detailed than the current generation lenses. If you don't plan on going above 24 megapixels, [or even 40 megapixels for that matter] one could argue you don't need the current generation lenses. 

A previous generation 28 Elmarit is more affordable is all I am saying. 

Hope this helps 

[J.C.T.]

1 hour ago, armevans said:

Hello, Leica-ists!

I've been shooting with an M4 for the past few years and have fallen in love with the Leica/rangefinder experience. This week, I finally ponied up and purchased a used M10 to hopefully supplant my current Fuji mirrorless kit.

Up until this point, I haven't really considered performance on a digital camera when buying M-mount lenses. On the M4, I've been very happy using a v1 Summicron 50/2 (collapsible) and a v2 Summaron 35/3.5, both from the 1950s. I also have a Light Lens Lab Elcan 50/2 that is really lovely and an Elmar-C 90/4 that I bought as a cheap telephoto option. I realize that 1950s lenses (or lens designs, in the case of the Elcan) aren't going to perform like modern, highly corrected lenses on the 24mp sensor, but I'm looking forward to seeing how their character translates to the digital M, particularly given that my copies of the Summicron and Summaron are exceptionally clean (no "cleaning marks" etc. and both CLA'd in the past couple years). If anyone has any experience shooting either of these lenses on an M10, I'd love hear about it!

Now that I have a camera with 28mm framelines, I'd really like to get a 28mm lens. On other camera systems, I'm generally a 50/28 shooter, and while I love the Summaron, I sometimes find it to be a bit too close to my 50s to make an ideal 2-lens kit. If I were still only shooting film, I'd probably be looking for something similar to my Summicron/Summaron kit—maybe an old Canon LTM or some other vintage 28mm. With the M10, I'm wondering whether it might be nice to have something a touch more modern—still something with a bit of character, but maybe something slightly better behaved. If Light Lens Lab made a 28mm, I'd probably go that route as I'm fond of my Elcan, but as it is, I'm considering the current Voigtlander options (the 28/1.5 has really captured my imagination) and the Zeiss Biogon 28/2.8. I'm also tempted by the Elmarit ASPH, but particularly after buying the M10, I'm not sure that I can justify the cost at the moment. Whatever I get will also be used on the M4 to shoot (primarily black and white) film, so that's also a consideration.

So, for those of you who are big 28mm shooters, what are you using, and on what cameras? What's worth considering? What should I avoid? The more 100% crops I stare at and spec sheets I read, the less knowledgeable I feel. Some actual user feedback would be much appreciated.

Cheers!

-A

 

The 28/1.4 Summilux is a delight. You can find some good ones that are pre-owned. Tamarkin Camera in Chicago always has a good selection of pre-owned M glass. 

[armevans]

1 minute ago, patrickcolpron said:

I agree wholeheartedly, I prefer older lenses on my digital M. 

But if you want a modern 28, there are two 28 mil lens I can talk about and appreciate their rendering enough to own and use them both, the 28 Lux which is the best fast 28 for the M in my opinion but, out of the question as you mentioned with your recent purchase of the M10.
 

Then there is my actual favorite 28 Leica M lens which can  occasionally be found used for way less than retail;

The 28 Elmarit ASPH, the latest version, it is a pleasure to use for its small size and has great rendering on both analog and digital M cameras.

When I tested the 28 Summicron and the 28 Elmarit, I found the Elmarit to have a better color and out of focus rendering plus, to be sharper (pixel peeped for those test images). 

I never use the 28 Elmarit with the lens hood, it looks great on an M camera and I much prefer smaller lenses over their larger counterparts, makes using an M more enjoyable.

On YouTube Analog Insights did a good review on the 28 Elmarit a couple of years ago. It is easily found. 
 

But I found www.streetsilhouettes.com conclusions when comparing two generations of 28 Elmarit lenses to be on point, and I loosely quote, current generation lenses are significantly and noticeably sharper at high resolution than previous generation lenses, however at normal resolution, the previous generation lenses aren't significantly or noticeably less detailed than the current generation lenses. If you don't plan on going above 24 megapixels, [or even 40 megapixels for that matter] one could argue you don't need the current generation lenses. 

A previous generation 28 Elmarit is more affordable is all I am saying. 

Hope this helps 

Immensely helpful—thanks, Patrick. The 28mm Summilux looks like an excellent lens, though it's certainly out of budget, and I don't know that I really nice the speed or want the size. The Elmarit is a stretch possibility, however, and I do like the size of the ASPH versions particularly. I have no plans to move past the M10's 24mp any time soon, so I suspect either version would be more than sufficient. It feels tough to justify spending 3x the price of an equivalent Voigtlander lens, but I'm coming to terms with the fact that Leica gear is often a "buy once, cry once" affair.

[JoshuaR]

16 minutes ago, armevans said:

As an aside, how did you like the Zeiss Sonnar? I'm fascinated by that lens. 

I didn't find focus shift to be an issue, in my real-world usage—basically taking pictures of my wife and kids. I sold it because the focus action on my copy was a little stiff and uneven, and, TBH, because I was curious about other lenses.

[TomB_tx]

I don't use wider than 35 much, so couldn't see high dollar investment in such lenses. I've had good results with the VC 21 f4 as a tiny lens to tuck in my kit to be available, and so when I also decided to see if the 28 framelines were useful, I kept the same rationale (tiny and inexpensive) and got a TTA 28 f5.6. Solid construction, aperture is fine for M10 high ISO, and mine performs well, but can have veiling flare with light sources just outside the frame. It fits my needs.

[armevans]

23 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

I don't use wider than 35 much, so couldn't see high dollar investment in such lenses. I've had good results with the VC 21 f4 as a tiny lens to tuck in my kit to be available, and so when I also decided to see if the 28 framelines were useful, I kept the same rationale (tiny and inexpensive) and got a TTA 28 f5.6. Solid construction, aperture is fine for M10 high ISO, and mine performs well, but can have veiling flare with light sources just outside the frame. It fits my needs.

I keep thinking about the TTA 28/5.6! The Leica equivalent seems like an obvious companion to my 1950s kit with the Summicron 50 and Summaron 35, but it's unfortunately so expensive. I understand that the TTA version isn't the same optical formula and is a bit more modern in its rendering, but for ~$250 for a compact and all-brass lens, it's pretty compelling. Honestly, I might end up getting one (or the Brightin Star 28/2.8 that folks seem to like) while I save my pennies for an Elmarit. Thanks for the insights!

[Jeff S]

A frequent discussion topic, which could occupy you for days.  And you will likely discover in the meantime that what you already have performs superbly.
 

I bought the 28 Summicron ASPH v1 decades ago for use on my film M bodies, and it still performs wonderfully on my M10-R and M10 Monochrom.  (I replaced the ungainly hood almost immediately.)

Jeff

[Danner]

I agree about the current 28mm Elmarit.  Super sharp, compact, very nice handling, a perfect little M lens, and affordable too.  I use mine with the M6, usually with the 50mm Summicron.

[Al Brown]

10 hours ago, armevans said:

What has your experience been with the Voigtlander 28/1.5?

Really dislike its out of focus rendering.
Maybe try the Summaron 28/5.6 as well... old or new. Can't beat that size.

Edited June 5, 2024 by Al Brown

[costa43]

I like 24mm and 35mm so 28mm is not my go to but I do own the Minolta 28mm f2.8. A very low cost option which renders beautifully. It has two downsides though, it will trigger the 35mm framelines and many copies suffered from ‘white dot syndrome’. If you can find a clean copy then it’s worthy of consideration in my opinion. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[3D-Kraft.com]

I also recommend taking a closer look to the Thypoch Simera 28/1.4 ASPH and its wonderful bokeh. It's a bit larger than the Voigtlander 28/1.5 but still has a good balance to the M.

[KFo]

 I have all the 28s.  Well, not all, but a bunch.  It is my go to focal length.  Amongst this field: 2x 28 Crons, 28 summaron (modern), 28 elmarit, Canon 28 f/2.8 LTM.  You’d never guess me go to: Canon 28 f/2.8 LTM.

I choose that lens because the overall properties are what I like.  It is sharp enough on center and falls off sharpness-wise as you look across the frame.  Wide open it can be a lot like a 35 summilux PRE-ASPH; that is soft everywhere except dead center (the character?).  The Canon looks pretty normal but still soft at f/4. I shoot it at f/8 often and it exhibits sharp enough behavoir.  Wide open I only tend to shoot it close, say focused at <2.5m, or at certain subjects that I know work with the Canon’s defects.  It is also a bit lower contrast than my other 28s which I tend to prefer.  It is a small and economical lens and quite common if sourced through Japanese places.  Also easy to find very good to mint condition examples.

I shot this with my M10P.  I don’t worry about the f/2.8 aperture in terms of speed, I just crank up the ISO.