My M11-P experience

[Derbyshire Man]

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3 hours ago, Strmbrg said:

Thanks! Well, it may give an improper view of reality when taking part of issues presented on the internet. Most likely those who experience problems dominate the impression one gets.
I don't really assume that Leicas are unreliable, but my impression is that there is too much issues. But as written above - ones impression can easily be very distorted.
Specifically regarding the shutter-button: I may be stupid, but a metal knob with spring-loaded resistance and a dent on its way down is as far as I understand a mechanical unit in that part. Not a software-function. I.e. if one have to press it mechanically very hard and very deep to release the shutter, it cannot be solved with any software-upgrade.

Speculations, but maybe there is some kind of contact-point on a circuit board which shall be activated by the mechanical force. If the circuit board "happens" to be seated some mm too deep relative to the mechanical part, there may be an issue that shows up in the described matter.
Speculative of course, but very "sloppy" assembled or not rigidly constructed if that is the case.

This is exactly the fault that my M11 Monochrome turned up with a couple of days ago. Another camera coming tomorrow. I can understand a burn in failure but not a faulty shutter button on day 1. 

[Kiwimac]

Fingers crossed I’ve not had significant issues. 
 

I do completely agree that Leica really ought not to have this many problems when asking this much money. 
 

An M11-P or Monochrom isn’t far short of the price of a new Rolex Submariner. 
 

When did you last hear of anyone having problems with a new Rolex?

[Derbyshire Man]

They’ve been making those for years though.
 

My guess is that the firmware ‘team’ is underpowered, it’s hard to underplay how much is software & how much physical product. Second the owners need to do whatever it takes to double/triple/quadruple the capacity of the repairs department. Pay the money and the workers will come/be trained. Canon/Fuji cameras have problems (from experience)but repairs are 1-5 days. Products have issues but supporting them is critical (at £1.5k let alone £8k) and when I see emails sent to me for watches etc it’s hard not to think the owners are more interested in luxury brand than unique photographic tool. Having said that, if the watches fund the repairs team then I might change my mind!

Edited May 2, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[SrMi]

45 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

Fingers crossed I’ve not had significant issues. 
 

I do completely agree that Leica really ought not to have this many problems when asking this much money. 
 

An M11-P or Monochrom isn’t far short of the price of a new Rolex Submariner. 
 

When did you last hear of anyone having problems with a new Rolex?

That is an illogical comparison. A more expensive car does not have less issues than a less expensive car. I am sure a Rolex Submariner has more issues than a Casio watch. If you search on Google you will find plenty of reported issues with Rolex Submariner.

[Kiwimac]

You’d need to compare the percentage issues. Not the actual number. 
 

Rolex make close to a million units a year. Leica doesn’t. 
 

It’s a perfectly valid comparison in my view. Both are expensive luxury items expected to do a reliable job, day in, day out. Both cost about the same. 
 

Perceptually both are luxury goods as well as practical tools. 

[Kiwimac]

I think it’s also arguable that Leica should actually slow their product updates. 
 

The M11 is a camera that delivers a unique way of working, with a good sensor and generally a good system around it. 
 

If the M12 came out 8 years after the 11 and the time was used to make sure it was bomb proof in reliability etc then would the M11 series really be a bad camera by year 4 or 5? No. It wouldn’t. 
 

The perpetual refresh cycle doesn’t suit companies like Leica that aren’t trying to get the latest AF, the fastest fps, the latest AI assistance etc etc in their M cameras. 
 

Even IBIS would be a challenge in terms of space and of battery life. 
 

Iterating less often and better would suit the M. It’s at a stage now where it’s genuinely hard to think of what could be added from the available tech that would actually improve it without negatively impacting other aspects. 
 

They have the SL as a platform for IBIS, AF developments and so on. I think the M could iterate more slowly with more attention to detail and more testing. 

[SrMi]

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38 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

You’d need to compare the percentage issues. Not the actual number. 
 

Rolex make close to a million units a year. Leica doesn’t. 
 

It’s a perfectly valid comparison in my view. Both are expensive luxury items expected to do a reliable job, day in, day out. Both cost about the same. 
 

Perceptually both are luxury goods as well as practical tools. 

I am comparing Rolex to Casio, and I bet Casio sells more watches than Rolex and is more reliable than Rolex.

[SrMi]

28 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

I think it’s also arguable that Leica should actually slow their product updates. 
 

The M11 is a camera that delivers a unique way of working, with a good sensor and generally a good system around it. 
 

If the M12 came out 8 years after the 11 and the time was used to make sure it was bomb proof in reliability etc then would the M11 series really be a bad camera by year 4 or 5? No. It wouldn’t. 
 

The perpetual refresh cycle doesn’t suit companies like Leica that aren’t trying to get the latest AF, the fastest fps, the latest AI assistance etc etc in their M cameras. 
 

Even IBIS would be a challenge in terms of space and of battery life. 
 

Iterating less often and better would suit the M. It’s at a stage now where it’s genuinely hard to think of what could be added from the available tech that would actually improve it without negatively impacting other aspects. 
 

They have the SL as a platform for IBIS, AF developments and so on. I think the M could iterate more slowly with more attention to detail and more testing. 

Leica needs regular hardware updates as they need to generate and increase profits.

Leica needs to generate more stable releases, though. I speculate that they need better software engineering discipline and better management of releases. The issues encountered are inexcusable. More testing is not a solution, as testing can never prove the absence of bugs, only their presence. Proper development discipline can lead to significant reduction of bugs.

[Knorp]

Don't they have too many models to support (and develop) ?

• SL3, SL2, SL2-S
• M11, M11-M, M11-P, (M11-D?)
• V-LUX5, D-LUX7
• S3, (S4?)
• Sofort-2
• CL, TL2

[charlesphoto99]

23 hours ago, Strmbrg said:

What is the purpose of buying this very high-priced cameras, if they are less reliable than much less expensive brands?
I bought my M10-R partly because my first Leica, the Q2, was very agile and reliable. My M10-R is second-hand and in the box was some receipt or something that may indicate that the camera has been in for some work. The text on it doesn't explain anything in detail.
Well, I haven't had any issues with it so far (four months) and if something happens I will directly stop using product from this manufacturer.
Cameras for those crazily high prices shall just work, without failures. Of course cameras shall work even if they cost a tenth of those crazy prices. Why shouldn't they?

Consider it actually 'good' that your used M10-R has been back for evaluation/repair. My new M10-R black paint had to go back almost immediately (well, I lived with it for awhile) for an out of calibration rf, and then last year for back buttons that would stop working over a certain ambient temperature (something else I lived with until I couldn't any longer). As much as I love Leica cameras (my daughter's name is Leica after all) and rely on them solely, I'll be the first to admit not all is right in the state of Denmark, to paraphrase Shakespeare. 

[ianforber]

On 5/3/2024 at 12:10 AM, SrMi said:

I am comparing Rolex to Casio, and I bet Casio sells more watches than Rolex and is more reliable than Rolex.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head, in terms of expectation. People who buy a Casio expect perfect timekeeping year after year without it missing a beat. People who buy a Rolex know it doesn’t tell perfect time and will require occasional, very expensive , servicing. The problem comes if people buy a Rolex expect it to behave like a Casio. The problem here seems to be that we are buying the camera equivalent of a Rolex, hoping for a Casio-like performance but with some users getting something akin to a dodgy watch with a magnetised movement.

[chris7273]

Small difference : Rolex doesn’t try to install a wifi/bluetooth/led… whatever in their watches 🙂 expectations from Rolex customers are clear and they don’t expect that their watch will be an iwatch… 

 

[tritentrue]

On 4/21/2024 at 11:29 PM, LeicaR10 said:

Apparently, finding people who need to be trained to be repair technicians who want to stay and work is an issue.  

We've heard this excuse reason a number of times regarding Leica's repair turnaround time.  So how is it that they can find and apparently retain enough people to build the faulty M11 bodies?

Oh, wait . . . now I get it . . .  😉

[ianforber]

13 hours ago, chris7273 said:

Small difference : Rolex doesn’t try to install a wifi/bluetooth/led… whatever in their watches 🙂 expectations from Rolex customers are clear and they don’t expect that their watch will be an iwatch… 

 

Ah, good point. So Rolex customers who bought one expected a Rolex but got an iwatch instead!

[adan]

On 5/8/2024 at 12:24 AM, chris7273 said:

Small difference : Rolex doesn’t try to install a wifi/bluetooth/led… whatever in their watches 🙂 expectations from Rolex customers are clear and they don’t expect that their watch will be an iwatch… 

Exactly! And to add to your list, does a top-end Rolex Oyster-type include:

- a CPU?
- circuit boards?
- ribbon cables?
- internal RAM or ROM?
- SD-card port?
- USB-C connection?
- firmware?

A digital camera - even an M11 from Leica - is "a computer with a lens on it." Don't be fooled by the fact that on the M-digitals, Leica retains the 1950s opto-mechanical RF/VF on top of the computer.

Trying to compare the M11 - in any way - with a clockwork, well, wrist-clock, is like trying to compare a Windows computer running Microsoft Word™ to a vintage typewriter**/***.

Doing so implies a hefty dose of naïveté (= "unsophistication; lacking in experience, wisdom, or judgement")

(**Note: I am not claiming one or the other is "better," just that they are as different as chalk and cheese - excepting a few recent Camemberts I've tried. 😝 )

_____________________

*** I did all my high-school/undergraduate papers (1970s) with one of these, handed down by my father. 1939 Underwood Universal. 

https://typewriterdatabase.com/1939-underwood-universal.2280.typewriter
If it "froze" (broken link between a key and its striking arm), it could be repaired with a reshaped paper clip. 📎

[lct]

1 hour ago, adan said:

[...] Trying to compare the M11 - in any way - with a clockwork, well, wrist-clock, is like trying to compare a Windows computer running Microsoft Word™ to a vintage typewriter**/***. Doing so implies a hefty dose of naïveté [...]

Almost as naïve as believing the M12 will look like a vintage M10 more so than a modern M11 😄

[adan]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Almost as naïve as believing the M12 will look like a vintage M10 more so than a modern M11 😄

1) Where did I say what the M12 would "look like?" Although I expect it will pretty much "look like" both the M11 and M10 - which for all practical purposes "look" indentical. 

Which is which? (OK - there are three "tells," for the cognoscenti 🤪 )

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

2) If you mean my stating what was on my M12 wish list - that was not "believing" anything. Not a prediction, not a belief, just a wish list.

Apology for your mischaracterization accepted.

[Jeff S]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:43 AM, Knorp said:

Don't they have too many models to support (and develop) ?

• SL3, SL2, SL2-S
• M11, M11-M, M11-P, (M11-D?)
• V-LUX5, D-LUX7
• S3, (S4?)
• Sofort-2
• CL, TL2

You omitted the Q series.

Jeff

[lct]

3 hours ago, adan said:

1) Where did I say what the M12 would "look like?" Although I expect it will pretty much "look like" both the M11 and M10 - which for all practical purposes "look" indentical. 

Which is which? (OK - there are three "tells," for the cognoscenti 🤪 )

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

2) If you mean my stating what was on my M12 wish list - that was not "believing" anything. Not a prediction, not a belief, just a wish list.

Apology for your mischaracterization accepted.

There was nothing personal in my post, i even ignored that you wrote on the subject but i don't mind apologizing for whatever i said.

Edited May 10, 2024 by lct

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