My M11-P experience

[Yarosuav]

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OP, sorry to hear. I've had numerous digital Leicas over the years and never had a single issue. I currently have an M11 and M11-P and they've been flawless... 

[LeicaR10]

Herr Barnack,   I totally agree with your post #19.   I had all three M11 variants...all three DUDs.  I need reliable M cameras that will work and not wait for "firmware" that as aboriginal Aussies say here..."Is in the Never, Never".   I went back to the M10 and vairants.  Best M camera made to date.  Herr Stefan Daniel has heard several times from me about the dud M11s and acknowledges Leica has a Customer Service problem they are trying to fix.  Apparently, finding people who need to be trained to be repair technicians who want to stay and work is an issue.  This is a problem for many companies....finding people who want to work.   BTW, many SL2 owners are still waitng for the promised "firmware" update by Herr Steffan Rau (SL2 manager) for 4 months to return the magnification feature back to the joystick...again, it looks like this to will be in the "Never, Never."   

Instead of Leica wasting its resources trying to make the M camera into an Apple camera, how about taking the money and fix current issues with the M11 and design a digital M camera based on the original "keep it simple" concept and add to it make all the Leica cameras RELIABLE.   r/ Mark 

[SrMi]

I had all digital M cameras (starting with the M8) and never had any issues except with the M11 (I got it at launch), which was quickly replaced by my dealer. The M11 issue did not prevent me from photographing with it (very slow startup). I now have two M11 cameras (silver and black) and have no issues with them.

Edited April 21, 2024 by SrMi

[sebben]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

I had all digital M cameras (starting with the M8) and never had any issues except with the M11 (I got it at launch), which was quickly replaced by my dealer. The M11 issue did not prevent me from photographing with it (very slow startup). I now have two M11 cameras (silver and black) and have no issues with them.

So you didn’t have IR pollution with the Leica M8? 
 

No sensor corrosion with the M9?

 

 

[SJH]

I have an M11, M11P and an M11M and so far only one minor freeze on start up (M11P) that corrected itself, this compares with about 5 or so freezes with my M10's previously. To me so far I can therefore say my M11's are more reliable than my M10's.

Equally though there are a number of people who quite clearly have had very serious issues with their M11's and I really feel for them. I think the only benchmark we have is right here, in other words if you look at the 'Case collection v2.0.2' thread, this should be where people are reporting issues with the latest firmware on all M11 models. So far there have been 12.5k views since February but only actually 95 replies. In other words over the last 8 weeks 95 people have experienced something (not all though are actually reporting an issue).

It would appear that the vast majority of people don't have an issue on the latest firmware but those that do it's catastrophic for them. People have mentioned discussions with senior Leica people and whilst I'll keep private conversations to myself, the general gist I get from them is that's how they see it to. In other words a thread exists here on a forum with the highest number of Leica users present and over the last 8 weeks there are a maximum of 95 people who've actually experienced something serious enough to post about the latest firmware. I don't think they'll deny there is an issue but I think that there's been a lot of handwringing that puts things out of perspective e.g. post after post from people in other threads going over the same thing time and time again, without actually reporting anything.

Equally though there is no excuse for poor customer service but again my experience (in the UK) is that if I ever have a rare issue (some of which have been reported in this forum)  Leica are on it and resolve it very quickly for me. I've also found that the other manufactures have all had issues to with what are essentially computers now e.g. my Canon 5d Mk3's continually were crashing for months until Canon realised it was actually the wifi cards that had come out at the time, Nikon with the 800 series (documented issues with the Z8), etc etc.

So I do think there is clearly an issue for a minority of M11 users and that does seem to be quite small looking at the 2.0.2 thread but we'll probably never know what percentage that relates to in the overall number of M11's sold.  It would have been better to have started an 'issues with v xxx' threads much earlier with a rule that you can only report freezes/bugs nothing else and then have another thread for a 'Freezing & bug discussion'. We might have had a better idea of the scope of the issue (and Leica) but I think this a learning thing for the future.

[Herr Barnack]

18 hours ago, Yarosuav said:

OP, sorry to hear. I've had numerous digital Leicas over the years and never had a single issue. I currently have an M11 and M11-P and they've been flawless... 

You are one of the fortunate ones. 

Have you ever considered leading workshops titled "How to use the M11 without making it shit the bed?"  There is apparently a deep client base for such training.

Edited April 22, 2024 by Herr Barnack

[waltb]

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Thanks for all the replies. I really didn't want to complain about the m11. Maybe the issues are widespread, maybe it's just a few. 
I'm more annoyed by the very poor customer experience I have. Maybe I expected too much but atleast tell me when I could expect my camera back.

[Olaf_ZG]

6 hours ago, SJH said:

I have an M11, M11P and an M11M and so far only one minor freeze on start up (M11P) that corrected itself, this compares with about 5 or so freezes with my M10's previously. To me so far I can therefore say my M11's are more reliable than my M10's.

Equally though there are a number of people who quite clearly have had very serious issues with their M11's and I really feel for them. I think the only benchmark we have is right here, in other words if you look at the 'Case collection v2.0.2' thread, this should be where people are reporting issues with the latest firmware on all M11 models. So far there have been 12.5k views since February but only actually 95 replies. In other words over the last 8 weeks 95 people have experienced something (not all though are actually reporting an issue).

It would appear that the vast majority of people don't have an issue on the latest firmware but those that do it's catastrophic for them. People have mentioned discussions with senior Leica people and whilst I'll keep private conversations to myself, the general gist I get from them is that's how they see it to. In other words a thread exists here on a forum with the highest number of Leica users present and over the last 8 weeks there are a maximum of 95 people who've actually experienced something serious enough to post about the latest firmware. I don't think they'll deny there is an issue but I think that there's been a lot of handwringing that puts things out of perspective e.g. post after post from people in other threads going over the same thing time and time again, without actually reporting anything.

Equally though there is no excuse for poor customer service but again my experience (in the UK) is that if I ever have a rare issue (some of which have been reported in this forum)  Leica are on it and resolve it very quickly for me. I've also found that the other manufactures have all had issues to with what are essentially computers now e.g. my Canon 5d Mk3's continually were crashing for months until Canon realised it was actually the wifi cards that had come out at the time, Nikon with the 800 series (documented issues with the Z8), etc etc.

So I do think there is clearly an issue for a minority of M11 users and that does seem to be quite small looking at the 2.0.2 thread but we'll probably never know what percentage that relates to in the overall number of M11's sold.  It would have been better to have started an 'issues with v xxx' threads much earlier with a rule that you can only report freezes/bugs nothing else and then have another thread for a 'Freezing & bug discussion'. We might have had a better idea of the scope of the issue (and Leica) but I think this a learning thing for the future.

Well, if the issue is so small, Leica could simply replace the cameras. But they don’t. Obviously cost of such replacement is higher than loosing its reputation.

Add on this sortwise problems with the SL3 (loosing images) and may be with the Q, problems are may be bigger than diehards would like to see.

lack of labour is an utterly nonsense excuse: either pay more to attract new talent, either take less projects.

[SJH]

6 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Well, if the issue is so small, Leica could simply replace the cameras. But they don’t. Obviously cost of such replacement is higher than loosing its reputation.

Add on this sortwise problems with the SL3 (loosing images) and may be with the Q, problems are may be bigger than diehards would like to see.

lack of labour is an utterly nonsense excuse: either pay more to attract new talent, either take less projects.

I would suggest though that there is far less actual evidence (instead of speculation) of a widespread issue than one which relates to a minority e.g. 95 replies to the 2.0.2 case collection thread. The challenge for Leica is that they have struggled to replicate the issue that the minority have. What is also strange is that for example one person in this thread has had '3 dud M11's' (which I don't doubt) yet many others, including myself have had none, it's therefore not really an obvious bug otherwise it would be showing up on every camera.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Well, if the issue is so small, Leica could simply replace the cameras. But they don’t. Obviously cost of such replacement is higher than loosing its reputation.

A good dealer will replace a faulty camera.

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

A good dealer will replace a faulty camera.

A good manufacturer will cover the dealer's cost when he does.

[SrMi]

12 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

A good manufacturer will cover the dealer's cost when he does.

I assume that always happens.

[fotografr]

On 4/21/2024 at 2:13 AM, Kiwimac said:

It’s my wife’s 60th birthday and we’re going on a long cruise trip. 
 

Given the unrepeatable nature of the event, I’ve actually thought seriously about buying a Fujifilm X100VI as a backup just in case my M11 packs in. 

The wait time to get one is about the same as the Leica repair time. Otherwise, it's a good idea.

[Kiwimac]

30 minutes ago, fotografr said:

The wait time to get one is about the same as the Leica repair time. Otherwise, it's a good idea.

Might not be in NZ. We actually still have at least one discontinued lens in stock here due to low sales and I picked up a 35 Apo Summicron off the shelf when elsewhere people were waiting ages. 

Edited April 23, 2024 by Kiwimac

[Markey]

Wow .... I was only looking at an M11 yesterday and planning to hack in my BPM4 to buy.

I`ll stick with my 246 after reading this . 

Can`t believe Leica are letting this situation continue .

How foolish of them.

[jaapv]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:40 PM, Al Brown said:

Go through the EU legislation here: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htm

This article is misleading.
I am not a lawyer but only an interested citizen so I am happy to be corrected by an expert. This is my understanding;

There is no real uniform EU  law as understood by most of us. It is based on treaties and directives that define the basics and limits that national laws must adhere to. 
As consumer one must apply to national courts that will apply national laws that will  vary by country albeit within the EU framework. The national legal decision when fully settled locally can be appealed against at the European Court but this is a lengthy and expensive process. 
The most one can do in a national court is argue that the European rules be respected. 

[jaapv]

That is what I am saying. Within the boundaries of EU treaties and directives. 
There are universal regulations as well, which must be implemented by national courts  

https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-making-process/types-eu-law_en

[insomnia]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb Al Brown:

The actual important part is that it varies EU country to EU country. Local variations apply.

so what you're saying is that posting this regulation had no additional value and did not at all back up the 45 day rule you mentioned?

[fotografr]

4 hours ago, Markey said:

Wow .... I was only looking at an M11 yesterday and planning to hack in my BPM4 to buy.

I`ll stick with my 246 after reading this . 

Can`t believe Leica are letting this situation continue .

How foolish of them.

I've been waiting two years for Leica to sort this out, only to be disappointed.

I'm sticking with my M10-R and M10M, which have both been perfect. 

We'll see what the M12 brings, but I am losing faith.

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[sebben]

On 4/23/2024 at 3:59 AM, Kiwimac said:

Might not be in NZ. We actually still have at least one discontinued lens in stock here due to low sales and I picked up a 35 Apo Summicron off the shelf when elsewhere people were waiting ages. 

That’s because New Zealand has an extreme cost of living crisis. Not many people afford food, rent or mortgage payments and a Leica due to decades of terrible policies that favour the rich and wealthy.