SL3-S - your expectations, wishes and hopes

[jaapv]

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That was my prediction for a SL3S as well. 

[jaapv]

On 4/19/2024 at 4:44 PM, JohnathanLovm said:

It’s fine, but y’know hardcore fans are still not accepting the L-mount Alliance. 

Hardcore. That would mean M (up to the M10) users 😉

[LocalHero1953]

9 minutes ago, costa43 said:

In the end I would not be surprised if Leica gave us their version of the Panasonic s5ii 24mp phase detect sensor in the sl3 body and called it a day.

Other than just the hardware, I doubt they would call it a day with just a different sensor. Fewer pixels gives you the chance to improve speed and processing: AF, video raw/ProRes and video frame rate etc.

[costa43]

Just now, LocalHero1953 said:

Other than just the hardware, I doubt they would call it a day with just a different sensor. Fewer pixels gives you the chance to improve speed and processing: AF, video raw/ProRes and video frame rate etc.

Totally agree, I failed to elaborate but the processor will of course be the latest and greatest so they will give us the bump on all other specs that come with processing power like you say. As a predominately manual lens shooter, 24mp is my happy place so no complaints here, although I will not be upgrading anytime soon, it would be nice to know there is a 24mp still in production for the years to come should my position change.

[Stuart Richardson]

I am not convinced we will see an SL3S, if only because they set up the SL3 to be multi-resolution and that sensor is already better for low light. But I guess if they want to emphasize video then they may well do it. It seems the SL2S was a good seller for them too. 24mp is enough for that kind of camera, but 30+ would be great, but I am not sure there are as many ready to go options for sensors in that size, and as the resolution creeps up to 30-40mp, the case for the 60mp version decreases. I suspect if they do it it will be 24mp.

For me at least, I did not like the changes they made to the interface and body of the SL3, so I don't think I would be interested in either camera. I am very happy with the SL2 generation. The camera I am most interested in is an L mount S4. Hopefully we get that in 2025, but I am not holding my breath.

[mipo]

After watching many videos with SL3 and constant issues with autofocus I am very pessimistic about the SL road ahead. Currently with SL2S system and I am seriously considering selling it as I am not convinced about quality of the video I am seeing coming off the SL3. Pictures, thats different story - SL2 does very well, as well as SL2S in that department. I was going to invest into wide Leica 14-24 but seeing the result of hunting focus on SL3 . . which is still not reliable for video . .  I am thinking ditching the SL system and go with something like Nikon Z8. Leica did not make it easy - upgrading to SL3 just does not feel right and the performance is disappointing and concerning. And I am just too old waiting for firmware which may never come. It should have been there on arrival plus more. If you know better, I am all ears. Talk me out of this 😉

Edited June 13, 2024 by mipo

[Stuart Richardson]

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34 minutes ago, mipo said:

After watching many videos with SL3 and constant issues with autofocus I am very pessimistic about the SL road ahead. Currently with SL2S system and I am seriously considering selling it as I am not convinced about quality of the video I am seeing coming off the SL3. Pictures, thats different story - SL2 does very well, as well as SL2S in that department. I was going to invest into wide Leica 14-24 but seeing the result of hunting focus on SL3 . . which is still not reliable for video . .  I am thinking ditching the SL system and go with something like Nikon Z8. Leica did not make it easy - upgrading to SL3 just does not feel right and the performance is disappointing and concerning. And I am just too old waiting for firmware which may never come. It should have been there on arrival plus more. If you know better, I am all ears. Talk me out of this 😉

I am not quite sure I follow...you are going to sell an SL2S because the video is not good enough in the SL3? Is it good enough for you in the SL2S? The SL3 is not a video focused camera...not with that 60mp slow readout sensor. Even then, rather than Nikon you might consider Panasonic which is one of the leaders in video and shares a mount, meaning you would be able to use all your same lenses, and seamlessly change out for an SL3S if you prefer that? If you really want video focus, Blackmagic also offers L mount cameras.

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am not quite sure I follow...you are going to sell an SL2S because the video is not good enough in the SL3? Is it good enough for you in the SL2S? The SL3 is not a video focused camera...not with that 60mp slow readout sensor. Even then, rather than Nikon you might consider Panasonic which is one of the leaders in video and shares a mount, meaning you would be able to use all your same lenses, and seamlessly change out for an SL3S if you prefer that? If you really want video focus, Blackmagic also offers L mount cameras.

The Blackmagic CC6K (L-mount), which I have, doesn't do AF during recording, except as back button focus.

Edited June 13, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[mipo]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am not quite sure I follow...you are going to sell an SL2S because the video is not good enough in the SL3? Is it good enough for you in the SL2S? The SL3 is not a video focused camera...not with that 60mp slow readout sensor. Even then, rather than Nikon you might consider Panasonic which is one of the leaders in video and shares a mount, meaning you would be able to use all your same lenses, and seamlessly change out for an SL3S if you prefer that? If you really want video focus, Blackmagic also offers L mount cameras.

Investing 2 500Eur for a glass in the SL system when potentially upgrading to sub par video focus capable camera which SL3 is,  just does not seem sensible for me at this moment. I am fortunately not heavily invested in SL system in terms of lenses but did expected the focus would be better on SL3 for video as many people were. And thats the sentiment toward SL3. People expected much more refined AF system that is  future proof for upgrade and can compete at least with mid level cameras. The video AF is obviously sub par in SL2S as well, but given the years between those cameras one would expect Leica will make significant changes and nail it this time. I expect nothing but best from Leica. For now its just system with many compromises if you want to do more then just a still photography. BTW Blackmagic does not do AF.

Just to add - I was Nikon shooter for almost 30 years and 2 years ago sold all my gear with all F lenses to get Leica SL2S +24-70  next to my Q which I love to date. Now I shoot mainly interior photography, behind the scene videos. Sl2S too heavy and large for street but I do that also. Wanted to have a camera for occasional video in studio which SL2S is "so so" perfomer in that regard. Moving forward, I need to get wider lens 14-24 (until now used Voigthlander Heliar III with superb results). If I sell the system now and add 2K (same as price of Leica 14-24) I'll get Z8, 14-24, 24-70. Prices of 2nd hand SL2S are now iunslanly low - about 1800Eur ;-( 

Do I want to do it, very much NO. I hate changing systems. If I stay with the system assuming I want to update in a year or two - would SL3 meet my expectations? Unfortunatelly it does not meet it now, I do not think any firmware will fix for then.

Thank you for your input either way. 

Decisions decisions decisions.  And then we are dead 😉

Edited June 13, 2024 by mipo

[Stuart Richardson]

Ok, fair enough. I thought from your first post that the video quality and autofocus were different issues, as most serious motion work is done without AF. It sounds like you would be happier with a Nikon, as your needs don’t really seem to mesh with the SL system. The 24-70 and 14-24 lenses are both Sigma designs available in multiple mounts, so optically you will be able to stay consistent. The best use case for Leica is their APO Summicron lenses or 24-90 and 90-280 lenses, as well as the compatability with M, R and S lenses. And of course the design and build of the bodies. If you are more focused on state of the art focus speed and video quality, there are likely better choices available. I can completely understand wanting the most up to date and best features also in a Leica body, but it just doesn't work that way with Leica very often.
With respect to Leica in general I would recommend you buy for what is, rather than what is expected or hoped for. Leica is slow and conservative. You might be waiting a long time for them to do something they never do (an R10 for example).

Edited June 13, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, mipo said:

Currently with SL2S system and I am seriously considering selling it as I am not convinced about quality of the video I am seeing coming off the SL3.

The SL3 is Leica's high-resolution stills camera. It has video features, but that's not what it excels at.

Frankly, if you want the most full-featured hybrid mirrorless camera for AF video, get a Lumix S5ii. It will give you everything you want right now, and for the foreseeable future. Lok Cheung, who has used every camera over the past decade and a half, rates it higher than anything else. He even points-out that the video AF is better than Sony's best. Here's his one-year review:

 

[hansvons]

7 hours ago, mipo said:

Now I shoot mainly interior photography, behind the scene videos. Sl2S too heavy and large for street but I do that also. Wanted to have a camera for occasional video in studio which SL2S is "so so" perfomer in that regard. Moving forward, I need to get wider lens 14-24 (until now used Voigthlander Heliar III with superb results). If I sell the system now and add 2K (same as price of Leica 14-24) I'll get Z8, 14-24, 24-70. Prices of 2nd hand SL2S are now iunslanly low - about 1800Eur ;-( 

For what it is (a mirrorless hybrid camera that costs 4K and is not a high-end cine camera), the SL2-S is very good at video, certainly not "so so." Leica L-Log is based on Rec2020 and gives you stunning results, again, for what it is. In terms of interior photography, people, etc., it's a brilliant camera because its sensitivity is still unsurpassed, and colour, especially in the shadows, isn't better anywhere else. Sports and bird photography are a non-starter with its AF in today's market.

If you struggle with focusing when shooting video, you either work on your technique (literally millions of documentary films have been shot manually, and I prefer manual focus any time when shooting video because focus racking is an essential part of filmmaking) or follow @BernardC's advice and get a Lumix S5IIx. The colour isn't as nice as what the SL2-S provides, but otherwise, it's the better video camera.

Yes, the SL2-S is heavy and large for street photography, but that's not what it was meant for. Your Q is excellent here.

Lastly, the Nikon Z8 is just another camera. There is nothing magical about it, nor anything that will make your life better. Jumping systems are expensive exercises on many levels; it's not only about money.

To finish this, no really good video camera is also a great stills camera. When I shoot a proper video project, I rent. For personal stuff and mini-gigs, the SL2-S is a brilliant choice. I shoot it with a set of R-primes with excellent results. If I were starting a film production business, I'd rent. And at some point, maybe, I'd buy an FX3 if I had a project that pays for it. 

[mipo]

Thanks for the feedback.I hear you loud and clear as I have not made the decision yet. I agree that switching system is painful and expensive.

 

[hansvons]

22 minutes ago, mipo said:

I agree that switching system is painful and expensive.

😊

[Chris Nebard]

8 hours ago, hansvons said:

For what it is (a mirrorless hybrid camera that costs 4K and is not a high-end cine camera), the SL2-S is very good at video, certainly not "so so." Leica L-Log is based on Rec2020 and gives you stunning results, again, for what it is. In terms of interior photography, people, etc., it's a brilliant camera because its sensitivity is still unsurpassed, and colour, especially in the shadows, isn't better anywhere else. Sports and bird photography are a non-starter with its AF in today's market.

If you struggle with focusing when shooting video, you either work on your technique (literally millions of documentary films have been shot manually, and I prefer manual focus any time when shooting video because focus racking is an essential part of filmmaking) or follow @BernardC's advice and get a Lumix S5IIx. The colour isn't as nice as what the SL2-S provides, but otherwise, it's the better video camera.

Yes, the SL2-S is heavy and large for street photography, but that's not what it was meant for. Your Q is excellent here.

Lastly, the Nikon Z8 is just another camera. There is nothing magical about it, nor anything that will make your life better. Jumping systems are expensive exercises on many levels; it's not only about money.

To finish this, no really good video camera is also a great stills camera. When I shoot a proper video project, I rent. For personal stuff and mini-gigs, the SL2-S is a brilliant choice. I shoot it with a set of R-primes with excellent results. If I were starting a film production business, I'd rent. And at some point, maybe, I'd buy an FX3 if I had a project that pays for it. 

Apologies for jumping into what is essentially a discussion on video capabilities (your points are always well made and very knowledgeable on video). I just wanted to say that, for me at least, the SL2-S is not too large and heavy for using as a stills photography street camera if, like me, you use M-lenses and Sigma DGDN I-Contemporary primes. I do agree that the Leica Q is a marvellous tool to use on the street (I use mine regularly and wouldn’t part with it) but the SL2-S is much more than a video-centric hybrid camera. I’m in my late sixties and, these days, I much prefer my SL2-S, with an M-Summicron attached, to the M cameras I owned previously. Obviously, this is not the case for everyone - each to their own - but the SL2-S’s versatility and speed definitely transfers to the street. It is a wonderfully capable stills camera. 
 

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[Steve Babuljak]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:43 AM, Ken Abrahams said:

This wont do. 1/2000 sec and rolling shutter killing  my street photos. Shot with the 21 Super Elmar M I was reasonably happy with the SL3 out on the street. Shot between 400 iso and 1600 iso the images have acceptable grain when enlarged but my feeling is that the SL2S is better. The files are great and I  am sure its it's a matter of getting acquainted. The rolling Shutter is a problem however and I may stick with the SL2S and M10M for street work.   

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Was this shot with the mechanical shutter or electronic? That distortion is a little much! 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 hours ago, Steve Babuljak said:

Was this shot with the mechanical shutter or electronic? That distortion is a little much! 

Electronic. SL3. Nothing you can do with this sensor. It’s been around for years and this is a known hardware limitation. Other high res cameras are similar except Sony A1, Canon R5II and Nikon Z8/9. Most though trade resolution for speed like the A7R5, A7CR, S1R, Z7II, R5 etc. These all show the same rolling shutter.

Canon’s R5II tech is interesting. It allows 14 bit at high speed shooting but the scan rate is half the Sony A1 and Z8/9. It’ll be interesting to see if 1/160 scan rate makes a big enough improvement.

Mind you, if the SL3 had EFCS we wouldn’t really need to use the electronic shutter at all.

Gordon

[Jan1985]

Leica engineers should really spend some time with real video shooters that are out on the street, listening to them what is need to make the SL a real filmmakers tool. This is what Blackmagic does all the time. Working with the people that are working with it. That‘s the key to sucess.

It‘s same as the LFI magazine pushing photographers that don‘t do anything for contemporary photography. And in the end they wonder why their success rate is limited. Because they don‘t work a lot with the actual players.

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, Jan1985 said:

Leica engineers should really spend some time with real video shooters that are out on the street, listening to them what is need to make the SL a real filmmakers tool. This is what Blackmagic does all the time. Working with the people that are working with it. That‘s the key to sucess.

It‘s same as the LFI magazine pushing photographers that don‘t do anything for contemporary photography. And in the end they wonder why their success rate is limited. Because they don‘t work a lot with the actual players.

What do you define as contemporary photography? The latest LFI does contain contemporary work by Henrike Stahl, Teresa Freitas, etc.

 

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[tom0511]

If I were you, and the sl3 doesnt meet your expectations, I would wait until the sl3-s is announced and see if it meets your expectations. The rest is speculation.