M12 wishlist

[SrMi]

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12 minutes ago, _leicaguru said:

The megapixel race is why anyone needs IBIS in an M. There is really no other reason. Plus the chase of sharpness and generic perfection in their lenses. More megapixels. Sharper. Describes every new camera out there. 

People want IBIS in the 24MP CL as well. It would be the best APS-C camera for me.

[jrichie]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Other than a desire for legacy cosmetics, why does it have to be an M body? Why not just say an EVF semi-compact full fame body that can use M or L lenses? Essentially a Q with interchangeable lenses. Lighter, but by no means as small as an M. Gives Leica a lot more leeway to produce a camera that actually works as the technophiles would want it to work. But really, may as well just get a Q, or an SL or Nikon Zf with an adaptor and leave the classic M to do what it does best.  

Why would I want a Q, SL or Nikon ZF over a M mount camera to use my M mount lenses?

Anyway I am willing to bet they release an EVF M in the next version and am happy to wait and see.

If you wear glasses and try and shoot anything wider than 50mm then you may understand my opinion on the rangefinder compared to the EVF on the SL and Q3.

[_leicaguru]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

People want IBIS in the 24MP CL as well. It would be the best APS-C camera for me.

Im sure they do... 

[jonoslack]

9 hours ago, lct said:

Hehe the old quarrel between ancient and modern resurfaces here. For some of us, M is the name of a lens mount more so than a rangefinder. Leica will resist as long as ancient will breath i guess but all hope is not lost for newbies and oldies falling back in childhood like me 😀

It is the old quarrel, and as usual it assumes that there is only one answer. 
The thing that we can be thankful for is that Leica product management isn’t a reflection of this forum, or the next M would be a Sony! 🫣

 

[graphlex]

So the second answer is the EVF M. 

[jonoslack]

8 minutes ago, graphlex said:

So the second answer is the EVF M. 

Not really. With the M11 there are three pretty distinct answers (mono, normal, screenless)

[SrMi]

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AFAIK, Leica had said that they would add IBIS to M if they could without increasing thickness. They have also said that the M will always have a rangefinder. 

[costa43]

I totally agree with different lines. I just hope they differentiate them more in the M12 than the M11. Rather than just sticking to the exact same model with a different outfit. 

To achieve IBIS and maintain size, the shutter surely must go. I think the M12 in at least one iteration will lose the mechanical shutter. It is the only evolutionary step that I can think of that brings enough to the table to tempt people to upgrade from the current gen. Leica’s model relies on us trading up. The M11 already has 60mp, great battery, slim body. What else can they offer in a flagship M that will be a game changer. The challenge is maintaining high resolution with a fast reading sensor. If they introduce a faster reading sensor but reduce resolution drastically, that will make many unhappy, if they make the body fatter to accommodate IBIS and a mechanical shutter then that will make people unhappy. Be interesting to see what they come up with. I think the M12 comes this year. 

An EVF only version with clever manual focus solutions would be well received by the community and a traditional M at lower megapixel with fast operation and little to no choice would be well received by me 😏

Then again, Leica may have finally developed an OVF/EVF viewfinder that meets their quality standards. That could really be interesting..

Edited February 4 by costa43

[lct]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

It is the old quarrel, and as usual it assumes that there is only one answer. 
The thing that we can be thankful for is that Leica product management isn’t a reflection of this forum, or the next M would be a Sony! 🫣

I did not meter but i would bet my old Sony is thinner than my M11 in spite of IBIS. The M11 has a Sony sensor yet so perhaps there is something to learn from those Sony people after all....

[JNK100]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

I did not meter but i would bet my old Sony is thinner than my M11 in spite of IBIS. The M11 has a Sony sensor yet so perhaps there is something to learn from those Sony people after all....

Perhaps. However your Sony will not have a range finder nor  lenses the size of those for the M. 

You cannot compare apples and pears.

[lct]

1 minute ago, JNK100 said:

Perhaps. However your Sony will not have a range finder nor  lenses the size of those for the M. 

You cannot compare apples and pears.

My Sony has exactly the same M lenses. It has an adapter to fit them admittedly but it can shoot at 1/30s with no problem at all. I'm no techie and i congrat Leica for its attemps at modernizing the M but i feel hard to imagine that no solution can be found for the M to work the same way as it did 50 years ago.

[Edax]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I did not meter but i would bet my old Sony is thinner than my M11 in spite of IBIS. The M11 has a Sony sensor yet so perhaps there is something to learn from those Sony people after all....

The thingy you are overlooking is called Flange Focal Distance (or register). For Sony E-mount it is 18mm, for M-mount it is 27.8mm. So in a body of same thickness, Sony has nearly 10mm more space behind the sensor.

[evikne]

If the current D-line is the one being “held back”, with a lower pixel count and fewer options, then it means that the “hi-tech-M” will be the default version that the rest of the users have to accept. I'm afraid a lot of people will want something in between, with a screen. So I still think it will be difficult to satisfy everyone.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

If the current D-line is the one being “held back”, with a lower pixel count and fewer options, then it means that the “hi-tech-M” will be the default version that the rest of the users have to accept. I'm afraid a lot of people will want something in between, with a screen. So I still think it will be difficult to satisfy everyone.

I love my D - but I don't want a lower pixel count - what on earth is the point - especially as I can have smaller resolution files if I want them. If the high tech version is going to have IBIS and an electronic shutter, then the only sensors which can do that at present are less than 50mp. 

3 hours ago, costa43 said:

Be interesting to see what they come up with. I think the M12 comes this year. 

 

As for timing, it was pretty much exactly 5 years between the M10 (January 2017) and the M11 (January 2022), so on that basis one might expect the M12 in January 2027 - but as digital camera development has become less precipitous (especially sensor design) it seems to me that one might expect a longer gap than before, so how about 2028 or 2029? Of course I'm guessing, because if I knew I'd have to keep quiet!

Edited February 4 by jonoslack

[jaapv]

Well, Jono,  if the S versions of the SL make sense, why not on an M?  Especially if it meant reintroducing video. 

[costa43]

Just now, jonoslack said:

I love my D - but I don't want a lower pixel count - what on earth is the point - especially as I can have smaller resolution files if I want them. If the high tech version is going to have IBIS and an electronic shutter, then the only sensors which can do that at present are less than 50mp. 

As for timing, it was pretty much exactly 5 years between the M10 (January 2017) and the M11 (January 2022), so on that basis one might expect the M12 in January 2027 - but as digital camera development has become less precipitous (especially sensor design) it seems to me that one might expect a longer gap than before, so how about 2028 or 2029? Of course I'm guessing, because if I knew I'd have to keep quiet!

3 years between M8/M9/M240 so there is a chance, We've had the Mono, the P, the D, the black paint. Just the Safari to go surely, or is there a surprise model based on the M11 to come?🙃

Spill the beans Jono, you can do it, we won't tell anyone!

[lct]

2 hours ago, Edax said:

The thingy you are overlooking is called Flange Focal Distance (or register). For Sony E-mount it is 18mm, for M-mount it is 27.8mm. So in a body of same thickness, Sony has nearly 10mm more space behind the sensor.

Do you take the adapter into account in this calculation?

[Smudgerer]

36 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I love my D - but I don't want a lower pixel count - what on earth is the point - especially as I can have smaller resolution files if I want them. If the high tech version is going to have IBIS and an electronic shutter, then the only sensors which can do that at present are less than 50mp.

 

Well Jono if I was asked the question about sensor mp sizes a year ago I would have disagreed with you that's for sure, but since selling my M10-D last Spring and then going against everything I had said before about not trading up to "anything M11-ish" by buying a M11-D after my favourite dealer loaned me one for a week, ( there's a hidden reasons as to why we call them "dealers" ), I now sit in the same camp. I love the 18mp option and use it 90% of the time for a number of personal choice reasons, but it is also handy to know that if one wanted to you could go to the maximum 60mp option at anytime that suits, ( which is another sly Leica move to make us reconsider purchasing the Summicron 35 f2 APO that I said "would never happen" , so for now I will stick to 18mps if only for my wallet's sake ).

However if there was to be another single mp M coming down the road personally I would love for that camera to be greatly simplified electronically and have an updated / improved 24-36 mp sensor because I still believe that window to be the optimal sensor size for a digital M.

[jonoslack]

14 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Well Jono if I was asked the question about sensor mp sizes a year ago I would have disagreed with you that's for sure, but since selling my M10-D last Spring and then going against everything I had said before about not trading up to "anything M11-ish" by buying a M11-D after my favourite dealer loaned me one for a week, ( there's a hidden reasons as to why we call them "dealers" ), I now sit in the same camp. I love the 18mp option and use it 90% of the time for a number of personal choice reasons, but it is also handy to know that if one wanted to you could go to the maximum 60mp option at anytime that suits, ( which is another sly Leica move to make us reconsider purchasing the Summicron 35 f2 APO that I said "would never happen" , so for now I will stick to 18mps if only for my wallet's sake ).

However if there was to be another single mp M coming down the road personally I would love for that camera to be greatly simplified electronically and have an updated / improved 24-36 mp sensor because I still believe that window to be the optimal sensor size for a digital M.

I used to think that as well - but I'm no longer sure what the advantages of smaller sensors are: For example, one of the advantages of the SL2-S over the SL2 was that the 24mp sensor had much better high ISO than the 48mp of the SL2. . ..  but the 24mp sensor of the SL3-S doesn't have any such advantage over the 60mp of the SL3.

I've never been convinced by the storage space argument - the solution to that is better curation - once I used to import all my images and (sometimes) cull some later. Nowadays I select the good images on import and the rest never hit my hard drive. 

As for the camera shake argument - that doesn't apply if you choose the smaller DNG sizes either. 

. . . . . . so what is the reason?

 

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Hallo,

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[jonoslack]

30 minutes ago, costa43 said:

3 years between M8/M9/M240 so there is a chance, We've had the Mono, the P, the D, the black paint. Just the Safari to go surely, or is there a surprise model based on the M11 to come?🙃

Spill the beans Jono, you can do it, we won't tell anyone!

Hah! I wouldn't be talking about it if I knew - but I do feel that longer rather than shorter times makes more sense as the changes in digital cameras come less quickly.