M12 wishlist

[Steve Ash]

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb davorb:

….

* laser rangefinder mechanism

… for eye-peaking sharpness…

[jdlaing]

3 minutes ago, Steve Ash said:

… for eye-peaking sharpness…

A very bad idea.

[maxpower]

24 minutes ago, davorb said:

* GPS

Trust me, you really don't want to wait for a GPS lock when turning on your camera.

[Smudgerer]

On 12/3/2024 at 7:21 PM, pgk said:

The M12 should be half the MPixels of the M11 and consequently half the price. Otherwise it will hold no interest for me. I can get far higher specified cameras for vastly less than the M11 and despite what some think, they deliver excellent and sometimes exquistie results. I like rangefinders but not at the current silly M prices. 🙂

Stupid to some I know but my M11-D has been pretty much stuck on the 18mps setting since I bought the camera late last year and frankly I can't see a reason to change that, ( and yes I have tested it out at the 36 and 60 mps settings too just to see ). I certainly do not need to have to deal with large out of the camera files and at 18mps I've printed in B&W and colour cropped finals to A1 size with no issues and I do fully endorse the view expressed on this thread more than a few times that 24mps is way good enough for a M, be that a M10-P or whatever comes after the M11 series.

[charlesphoto99]

Instant startup from turning on. Instant startup from standby. Repeat, ad nauseam...

[JNK100]

4 hours ago, davorb said:

I'd like

* laser rangefinder mechanism

* IBIS

* GPS

* EVF (don't hate me for this)

Very funny

[Deeetona]

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Make it more film like

[Ray Vonn]

20 minutes ago, Deeetona said:

Make it more film like

That might not be not happening unfortunately (IMO).

[Crem]

My impossible dream is the M12-S...

• 24MP SL3-S sensor
• Instant startup as @charlesphoto99 said is an extremely undervalued feature that no vendor seems to focus on
• No more stupid scissor shutter noise every time the camera turns on... For the price... it could have a global sensor or stacked sensor or give me back the old shutter curtain metering
• Make it shorter like a M6 classic, MP film camera, etc
• Brass top/bottom
• Focus it on being a simple photographic tool instead of a do everything digital camera worried about specs
• A price less than the M11 would be icing on the cake

I really hope they split the M12 into two separate camera lines:

1. High megapixel do everything camera like the M11. I'll call this the landscape camera. They can even give it a hybrid EVF/OVF, IBIS, etc... pack it fully of features... and charge $11k+ USD for it since I don't want to buy it.
2. Low megapixel M12-S hopefully with the SL3-S sensor. I'll call this the budget friendly street/documentary camera. Take out the internal storage, content auth whatever, honestly feel free to remove as many features as you can to bring the price down. I just want to be able to quickly work the exposure triangle 99% of the time and have a reliable OVF only rangefinder camera. Live view doesn't matter much to me.

I'd love to buy a pair of the above mentioned M12-S model. A true successor to the M10-P is what I'd like.

Edited January 17 by Crem

[raizans]

These days, I’m ok with the M12 being 24-36mp. Anything 50mp+ can go in a more fully-featured rangefinder-style EVF-M that has IBIS.

[Smogg]

6 minutes ago, raizans said:

These days, I’m ok with the M12 being 24-36mp. Anything 50mp+ can go in a more fully-featured rangefinder-style EVF-M that has IBIS.

The lack of an OVF means that you can't quickly focus at apertures 5.6-16 on most lenses. The EVF is only useful at wide apertures. 
IBIS would of course be useful at 50+ Mp if the thickness of the camera can be maintained.

[Peter H]

I'm now happy with no other camera than my M11

I don't feel the need for anything else, and I don't require any changes to it.

I  wonder on occasion whether IBIS would be a useful addition, but then, no.  A couple of years ago I got rid of all my contemporary cameras other than the M11 and a couple of idiosyncrasies, and now understand that it has not only everything I need, but has helped me to become a better photographer again - not that there wasn't a huge space for improvement, because there was, and still is. 

The screen is an invaluable aid, but the rangefinder is the unchanging and overriding reason for using an M and that must never be compromised.

Everything else seems to me to be just fine. Perhaps I'm lucky but no digital M, and I've owned and used very many, has ever troubled me with software or other similar issues, other than the one I broke on a cold pavement in Dundee a few winters back. Maybe I have low standards, but the M11 matches them all, and more.

An M12 simply needs to be good enough to keep the company going. I'll inevitably end up with one because Leica make appealing cameras, but there is nothing more that I need for my photography.

 

Edited January 17 by Peter H

[IkarusJohn]

7 minutes ago, Peter H said:

I'm now happy with no other camera than my M11

I don't feel the need for anything else, and I don't require any changes to it.

I  wonder on occasion whether IBIS would be a useful addition, but then, no.  A couple of years ago I got rid of all my contemporary cameras other than the M11 and a couple of idiosyncrasies, and now understand that it has not only everything I need, but has helped me to become a better photographer again - not that there wasn't a huge space for improvement, because there was, and still is. 

The screen is an invaluable aid, but the rangefinder is the unchanging and overriding reason for using an M and that must never be compromised.

Everything else seems to me to be just fine. Perhaps I'm lucky but no digital M, and I've owned and used very many, has ever troubled me with software or other similar issues, other than the one I broke on a cold pavement in Dundee a few winters back. Maybe I have low standards, but the M11 matches them all, and more.

An M12 simply needs to be good enough to keep the company going. I'll inevitably end up with one because Leica make appealing cameras, but there is nothing more that I need for my photography.

 

Hi Peter,

Did you ever buy an X1D?  I recall you were taken with that camera.  I bought the X1D II and sold it out of frustration, then succumbed to the X2d and 1 lens - very happy with it so far (except that the XCD 38V lens crashed and I’ve been waiting a year for a repair/replacement).

The M11 isn’t for me, and future digital Ms unlikely to be, unless Leica returns to a stripped down model - like an MP, but digital.  That would be my forever digital M, and a nice pair with my M-A!

Best
John

[Peter H]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Hi Peter,

Did you ever buy an X1D?  I recall you were taken with that camera.  I bought the X1D II and sold it out of frustration, then succumbed to the X2d and 1 lens - very happy with it so far (except that the XCD 38V lens crashed and I’ve been waiting a year for a repair/replacement).

The M11 isn’t for me, and future digital Ms unlikely to be, unless Leica returns to a stripped down model - like an MP, but digital.  That would be my forever digital M, and a nice pair with my M-A!

Best
John

Hi John

You have a good memory!

No I didn’t buy one.  I borrowed one for a few days but it had too many stutters  and I quickly became frustrated with the focussing and viewfinder limitations, things I hope they’ve corrected in the 2. 

So I went the Fuji GFX route, first the 50 then the 100 which are  a spectacular cameras. But despite their remarkable abilities they are cumbersome and inconvenient compared with an M of any sort.

If M cameras didn’t exist, perhaps an X2D would be my choice, but luckily that’s not the case…

It’s a long story but I had  given up on Leica due to  how unhelpful they were when I broke my M10. I was very upset with them, and ended up selling my entire collection of Leica cameras and lenses except for an old R lens with M adapters that slipped through the net . It was a totally impotent protest! 

In the end I found no camera could replace an M, so I’m back . It remains the only camera that I can take everywhere, use intuitively and feel entirely relaxed with . There’s no nostalgia or analysis involved. It’s like using a fork: my relevant body parts know how to use it ,  and all I care about is what I’m getting from it without having to think about the process. 

And I love the tiny M lenses. They are, for me, perfect, and I’m not a perfectionist!

I certainly don’t analyse every last detail. I just care about what a photo looks like; is it real enough?  So if they’re not quite technically perfect in some competitively arcane sense  it doesn’t matter: they are perfect for me and nothing would induce me to return to a large autofocus system again. I feel even the best of them are all still a way off from the predictability,  spontaneity and comfort of an M camera.
 

So the M11 remains the ultimate camera for me: it truly does allow me to forget about the technicalities and just think about why I’m taking photos , and what photos I want to take. I like a screen. It’s helpful in so many ways. I make mistakes but don’t like missing shots, so for that reason if no other (and there are others)  I wouldn’t countenance a screen-less camera again. It was always my dream during decades of film photography. 

Maybe  that’s why I don’t care for any alterations to the M11: it already gets out of my way and gives me nothing else to think about than the subject I’m trying to photograph , and why I’m doing it . And its knobs and buttons all work fine! 
 
It’s good enough in every respect and I don’t need more or want less.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, Crem said:

hopefully with the SL3-S sensor.

The basic silicon may well be the same but it can never be the same sensor - it will have to be even more M-lens oriented.

[FrozenInTime]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The basic silicon may well be the same but it can never be the same sensor - it will have to be even more M-lens oriented.

When I had one, the SL2-S seemed to work well with M lenses. A M optimised micro-lens array and filter stack on top of the basic sensor may improve things further in a true M camera.

Swapping out the loathsome 60Mpixel sensor to create a 24Mpixel M11-S seems like a great idea ... and will cost less.

[jaapv]

I agree high resolution sensors have in general little to do with photography and everything with technology, except for cases like the Q and cropping. I would even go as far as to call APO lenses technical marvels for specific use. 

[Smudgerer]

13 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Swapping out the loathsome 60Mpixel sensor to create a 24Mpixel M11-S seems like a great idea ... and will cost less.

For Leica perhaps yes, but would that be reflected in the price for the buyer? I doubt it.

By the way, I too think that 60mps or more sensors on a Leica M is bounding on the unnecessary and the ridiculous.........Saying that even as I plead guilty to buying a M11-D last year, but I have yet to move off of the 18mps choice of resolution, I've seen no reason to do so.....and I am one who photographs to print and print large if in my opinion the image deserves it, up to A1 size with no problems. To have the choice of resolution though is I am sure very handy for some. A simplified 24mp M**S would be temping indeed, damn it.

[FrozenInTime]

33 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

For Leica perhaps yes, but would that be reflected in the price for the buyer? I doubt it.

By the way, I too think that 60mps or more sensors on a Leica M is bounding on the unnecessary and the ridiculous.........Saying that even as I plead guilty to buying a M11-D last year, but I have yet to move off of the 18mps choice of resolution, I've seen no reason to do so.....and I am one who photographs to print and print large if in my opinion the image deserves it, up to A1 size with no problems. To have the choice of resolution though is I am sure very handy for some. A simplified 24mp M**S would be temping indeed, damn it.

I would hope the SL3 to SL3-S price delta holds up for a M11 to M11-S upgrade.

My bugbear is a workflow that wants two identical bodies, which is most certainly unaffordable with the current M11.

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[Smudgerer]

24 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

I would hope the SL3 to SL3-S price delta holds up for a M11 to M11-S upgrade.

My bugbear is a workflow that wants two identical bodies, which is most certainly unaffordable with the current M11.

Absolutely, I do wonder if the constantly rising Leica pricing is cutting into Leica's customer base. I gulp when I read on the Forum about people talking here about going out with a couple or more of whatever recent Leica bodies, SL / S / M whatever, plus the likes of Noctilux's to bolt on with them plus spare 'Lux or two in the premium leather bags. Looking at the gear mentions on some images posted my mental math' at times comes up with sums north of 30K in anyone's money to photograph what?.........Cats? Flowers?

Ok, that last bit was somewhat harsh but truly it is bordering on stupid, even gross especially when you view some, not all by any means, of the imaging posted which in my humble opinion could have been achieved very easily with much lesser gear and far less €€€€€.

But it is what it is, it's Leica-Crack, and as far as I am aware it's still legal.

I pre-apologise for any offense.