M12 wishlist

[jonoslack]

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33 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Removing the mechanical shutter without having the latest greatest 'global' electronic shutter sensor would be a step back, and even then, if they did have access to it, might be a step back nonetheless, when it comes to dynamic range, base iso, and other issues. Right now, it's the purview of sports shooters, and the M is not considered a sports camera by those who shoot sports for a living (though it can very well be used for such, even with just the rangefinder). 

I once offhandedly said to a Tibetan monk who met a dog of mine, 'sometimes I wish I could be a dog [without all the responsibilities and crap that come with being human being my implication]. He looked at me seriously and said 'Please, be very, very careful what you wish for.' 

I couldn't agree more - stacked sensors and global shutters are great for sports shooters, but you can easily fulfil most needs with a modern BSI shutter with a decent readout speed and a hybrid shutter.

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[SrMi]

38 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Removing the mechanical shutter without having the latest greatest 'global' electronic shutter sensor would be a step back

A stacked sensor would be more than good enough (in A1, only 25% slower than a mechanical shutter); there is no need for a global shutter sensor. The Sony A1 has a sensor at 50MP, and the Z8/Z9 has one at 46MP. When you compare the Sony A7rV with the A1, the base ISO is the same, and the difference in PDR is too small to matter. The most significant difference is 50 vs. 60MP.

Edited February 4 by SrMi

[jonoslack]

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

A stacked sensor would be more than good enough (only 25% slower than a mechanical shutter); there is no need for a global shutter sensor. The Sony A1 has a sensor at 50MP, and the Z8/Z9 has one at 46MP. When you compare the Sony A7rV with the A1, the base ISO is the same, and the difference in PDR is too small to matter. The most significant difference is 50 vs. 60MP.

But the image quality is less good with a stacked sensor - even Sony have said so - it isn't a free lunch! Sure, I can see the argument for the SL3-S - but really not for an M

[JNK100]

2 hours ago, lct said:

I can understand that but the register distance argument sounds more like a marketing excuse for not doing things one is not competent for than a valid argument IMHO.

This is very funny! 😂 

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

But the image quality is less good with a stacked sensor - even Sony have said so - it isn't a free lunch! Sure, I can see the argument for the SL3-S - but really not for an M

I have both and have not noticed that IQ is worse with A1 than with a7rV. A1 II works great for landscapes, where IQ is essential. The story is different from that of a9 III and its global shutter. A camera with a stacked sensor is much more expensive, though.

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

I have both and have not noticed that IQ is worse with A1 than with a7rV. A1 II works great for landscapes, where IQ is essential. The story is different from that of a9 III and its global shutter. A camera with a stacked sensor is much more expensive, though.

I agree - I've had both, but the story is that the stacked sensor has less dynamic range and not such good resolution - it's not my story! (mind you I had the A1, not the A1 II) Personally I would prefer the option for both approaches

[_leicaguru]

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to summarize, the only thing that would matter to me for taking photographs (in a new Leica M) is quite simple:

1) mechanical shutter only that goes to 1/8000

2) A new Kodak developed 40MP sensor like the M8 with colors that looked like film stock (they can also go back to the old metering system and dump the off sensor one for all I care). 

3) A zommable OVF that allowed 0.63x magnification and 1.0x magnification. 

Other than faster processor and internal memory that would be it. And remove everything that isn't necessary to take a picture. 

Oh and return to all brass. 

Edited February 4 by _leicaguru

[IkarusJohn]

All this techie talk is starting to make my head spin.

From the simple perspective of someone who just takes pictures, I really don’t care how many MP the sensor has, whether it’s stacked, BSI or anything else (even CCD or CMOS), though monochrome is very nice.  I say this, having a 100MP X2D, a 24MP M10-D and an 18MP Monochrom (I call it Jono, as I still blame him for my lack of will power and buying the thing).  I genuinely don’t care.

What I do care about with the M is simplicity.  Provided the sensor is the best for the M system, great.  I don’t need to know about file size or in camera cropping - all I want is a good DNG file.  That’s it.  Camera shake hasn’t been an issue with my X2D, though it has IBIS.

I don’t like the live view metering in the M systems. It’s fine for my TL2, my SL and my X2D - those cameras are built around an EVF.  It follows, I guess, that I like having the traditional shutter, but that’s a symptom rather than a need.

I’d rather not have an LCD, as it eliminates a lot of crap I don’t want - I could ignore it, but it makes the camera ugly (showing my age, I know) and it prompts me to dive into a whole lot of stuff that I don’t need.  If you really want to see an elegant menu system, have a look at an X2D - knocks the socks off anything Leica does, and that’s saying something.

It would be lovely if a version of the next digital M was the same size as my M-A … now, where did I put what I was smoking 😀

[elmars]

I have never missed an IBIS in the M, especially not with the sensor of the M11, which easily takes very good pictures up to 6400 ISO, with AI post-processing even more. So simply turn up the ISO if the light is not enough. 

But Leica must and will think differently. They will investigate whether the market demands an IBIS, which I can well imagine in view of the long-standing discussions here. They also have to convey the impression that the M - despite all its tradition - is a technically contemporary product.

An IBIS requires space, it will not be possible with a mechanical shutter. Without a shutter, we need a different sensor technology. I'm not an expert on that. If I understand it correctly, a stacked sensor would not only have fewer pixels, but also other disadvantages. In my opinion, fewer pixels are harmless if they are over 40 MP. Less dynamic range and the like are harder to get over.

However, I don't think we know what they sensor manufacturers are currently developing. Perhaps there are now sensors without the disadvantages mentioned. Leica will know and act accordingly. Let us be surprised. But it's nice to speculate. Just like in the school playground. But back then it was Pentax versus Yashica.

Edited February 5 by elmars

[SiggiGun]

I think the further development of the M is basically going in two directions: IBIS and/or EVF. The Q offers good technical experience in this regard. As long as the traditional, tradition-conscious rangefinder community still exists, Leica will certainly stick with the typical M body (M5 is still present!).

Personally, I'm more interested in an MEVF than an M12 with IBIS. The M11 still has a role to play as a classic rangefinder camera. The M6 is also back in fashion. As for what I have, I hope that the M segment will not continue to move towards ‘even more pixels’. Most of us don't work in advertising and need large billboards. The M is and remains a reportage camera. However, if the EVF comes, I hope that it shows an image like the rangefinder. 

[Sharpdressed]

On 1/22/2025 at 10:31 PM, Crem said:

Do you think there is any chance it will happen? I'm assuming 0% or as close to it as one can speculate in a public forum.

I think there's a chance to see a shutterless M12S with 24 to 45MP with sensor readout similar to the Nikon Z9.

[SrMi]

How about an MEVF with IBIS and electronic shutter only (slow readout, who cares), and an M12 with no IBIS and no EVF :).

[Stevejack]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

How about an MEVF with IBIS and electronic shutter only (slow readout, who cares), and an M12 with no IBIS and no EVF :).

If they give us anything other than a global or stacked sensor for an electronic shutter only M12 it will be a monumental catastrophe as a massive portion of images will be ruined by rolling shutter... it takes ~ 1/10sec for all the pixels to be exposed on the 60 megapixel sensor of the M11 so it really is useless for anything other than a completely static scene. 

[SrMi]

19 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

If they give us anything other than a global or stacked sensor for an electronic shutter only M12 it will be a monumental catastrophe as a massive portion of images will be ruined by rolling shutter... it takes ~ 1/10sec for all the pixels to be exposed on the 60 megapixel sensor of the M11 so it really is useless for anything other than a completely static scene. 

The rolling shutter with 60MP is not a problem in most of my shooting (except with artificial light). I regularly shoot with the M11's electronic shutter, as do Sony A7rV users. Sigma fpL has only an electronic shutter.

However, I do not think Leica would launch a camera without a mechanical shutter with a readout time slower than 1/120 sec.

 

 

[Stevejack]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The rolling shutter with 60MP is not a problem in most of my shooting (except with artificial light). I regularly shoot with the M11's electronic shutter, as do Sony A7rV users. Sigma fpL has only an electronic shutter.

However, I do not think Leica would launch a camera without a mechanical shutter with a readout time slower than 1/120 sec.

 

 

I had the A7RIV for a very short time and couldn't get along with the e-shutter at all, any time there were cars / cyclists on the street or birds flying I would get rolling shutter effects. Mind you I was coming from the stacked sensor on the A9 at the time so it might have been more jarring to me.

I briefly tried the e-shutter when I first got the M11, thinking it might be good for silent street shooting, but immediately saw the rolling shutter effects and went back to mechanical.
I know it depends a lot on which elements are in the scene, and the M11 is no sports camera, but the e-shutter needs to perform on the same level as the existing 1/4000sec mechanical shutter under all conditions or it will just be a major step backwards.

[Stevejack]

Adding to my last post, I just checked out the math because I was curious - to match a 1/4000sec mechanical shutter the e-shutter's readout speed needs to be around 1/200sec. 

[_leicaguru]

14 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

I had the A7RIV for a very short time and couldn't get along with the e-shutter at all, any time there were cars / cyclists on the street or birds flying I would get rolling shutter effects. Mind you I was coming from the stacked sensor on the A9 at the time so it might have been more jarring to me.

I briefly tried the e-shutter when I first got the M11, thinking it might be good for silent street shooting, but immediately saw the rolling shutter effects and went back to mechanical.
I know it depends a lot on which elements are in the scene, and the M11 is no sports camera, but the e-shutter needs to perform on the same level as the existing 1/4000sec mechanical shutter under all conditions or it will just be a major step backwards.

I would take a Leica M without any electronic shutter. Make the mechanical shutter 1/8000s. I had ES cameras before. Never used it.

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

Adding to my last post, I just checked out the math because I was curious - to match a 1/4000sec mechanical shutter the e-shutter's readout speed needs to be around 1/200sec. 

Olympus Om-1 has 1/120 (stacked sensor) and it works fine for moving subjects.

Edited February 6 by SrMi

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[charlesphoto99]

The M has always been about the decisive moment (or at least should be). Not the decisive moooooooment. An e-shutter may work for YOUR photography, but Leica are not designing a new camera solely for that. It will be a mechanical shutter. 

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The M has always been about the decisive moment (or at least should be). Not the decisive moooooooment. An e-shutter may work for YOUR photography, but Leica are not designing a new camera solely for that. It will be a mechanical shutter. 

I agree that an M with EVF-only or significant rolling shutter is a no-go.