M12 wishlist

[Smudgerer]

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14 hours ago, Calvin said:

On the EVF, it would be great to have EVF that simulates the rangefinder with focus patch (much larger and brighter) and also accurately laid out frame lines calculated based on actual range. At a flip of a switch, you can go to the typical mirrorless TTL look with focus peaking and even simulated focus patch 😀 Best of both worlds and actually improved over both. It would take some R&D to get there and this will be expensive as Leica would be the sole user of it, but hopefully not as expensive over time as mechanical rangefinders. The resultant unit would be lighter and not require periodic rangefinder maintenance. Most importantly, it doesn’t take away from traditional rangefinder experience.

I also like IBIS. Stacked sensor can be useful but hopefully, it can be adaptive so you don’t or lose less image quality when the scene is relatively static and the sensor can be read more slowly. I suppose this would be an evolution of current stacked sensors and this development is already in place. If it eliminates mechanical sensor, might justify having it without raising the price.

Startup time is also mentioned. I have missed fair share of shots to slow startup. My Z8 is almost instantaneous to M11. I think they can optimize the shutter open and close and keep curtain open more often to avoid having to wait for curtain to open. For M, I feel this wait is even more disruptive than for regular mirrorless because you expect the camera to be tactile whereas for mirrorless like the Z8, I keep it in silent mode all the time and I expect it to work like an electronic device.

and would it be time to introduce a new line of electronic M lenses that transmit EXIF and aperture info, maybe even add AF (oops) and VR? Nikon has had hybrid mechanical electronic F mount for a long time. Many would kill me if I mention any equipment and particularly lenses with electronics, so I just mention. Leica certainly would be happy for extended upgrade cycle for lenses.

And lastly, that pesky lens release button that’s on the wrong side. Perhaps I’m conditioned to switching Nikon lenses but really feel it’s easier to switch lens if button is not blocked by grip and away from the master hand still holding the camera. 

since I’m on this topic, the frame change lever can have an additional programmable function button on it. Oh, and I don’t mind having that fake film advance lever to make me look like a camera god. If not standard, then as an accessory 😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

Others may differ, but as an M user from the year dot this would be my reaction to your six wish-list items for an ongoing M:

No

No

No

No

No

No

 

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[ksrhee]

Those folks who want all these extra features for the M, there are other cameras on the market that can satisfy your needs.  As far as I am concerned, there is only one camera that satisfies my need.  So, please keep things as they are. 

[_leicaguru]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

I agree that IBIS is not necessary for M12. However, sometimes I take my SL3 instead of M11 just because of IBIS.

Some of my good shots were done with IBIS in low light at metered ISO 3200 (e.g., Venice at night). Like you, I typically need a shutter speed of 4 times the focal length. I often use a shutter speed of half the focal length (or even slower) with IBIS. That is five stops of stabilization. A stabilized shot at metered ISO 3200 would translate into a non-stabilized shot of ISO 1,000,000 (ISO 50000, one stop underexposed), which cannot produce a usable image.

I don't understand this. Why would you shoot something at ISO1,000,000? Whats the focal length, aperture and shutter speed? 

How come andreas feininger can take one of the most iconic photos and beautiful photos of the statue of liberty in the 1940's at night during a blackout on film and he can do it but now we need all sorts of trickery to take a photo of something inconsequential that nobody will ever see?

Check Brassai: Paris by Night. 

I just don't get it. 

If people are at the point where they need all this stuff to take a photo with an M then the M and the new lenses have gone too far away from what the M is supposed to be. Maybe it is time to reel it back instead it adding more. 

Edited February 3 by _leicaguru

[charlesphoto99]

Perhaps Leica should just make an 'mPhone' for those that want the camera to do it all for them in a compact package. Really losing the plot by wanting the M to be something it isn't. 

[_leicaguru]

On 4/6/2024 at 2:19 AM, Smogg said:

1. A small (1mm) protruding frame on the body around the rangefinder window to make it less likely to touch it with finger and less likely to clean it. Or just a small protruding edge to the left of the rangefinder window (if you look at the camera from the front).
2. IBIS, but while maintaining the current camera size. Maybe it will be enough for the developers to extend the mount another 1 mm.

3. Eye recognition assistance in EVF similar to Nikon Zf.

4. Clickable joystick like the SL in the center of the circle with arrows to the right of the screen instead of the button

5. 5Mp Visoflex

6. Buffer for 50+ frames

7. Optional EFCS.

8. Speed up recording on fast memory cards or use 256GB of built-in, but fast memory.

 

16 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Perhaps Leica should just make an 'mPhone' for those that want the camera to do it all for them in a compact package. Really losing the plot by wanting the M to be something it isn't. 

😅 The wishlist for the M12 describes any mirroless camera now. Plus autofocus. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited February 3 by _leicaguru

[lct]

Hehe the old quarrel between ancient and modern resurfaces here. For some of us, M is the name of a lens mount more so than a rangefinder. Leica will resist as long as ancient will breath i guess but all hope is not lost for newbies and oldies falling back in childhood like me 😀

[jrichie]

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10 minutes ago, lct said:

Hehe the old quarrel between ancient and modern resurfaces here. For some of us, M is the name of a lens mount more so than a rangefinder. Leica will resist as long as ancient will breath i guess but all hope is not lost for newbies and oldies falling back in childhood like me 😀

Yes I see it more as the lenses than the rangefinder.  I want a more modern body to use my M lenses on [whilst wearing my glasses......]. The M11 is ok for 50mm but I cant see any framelines with wider lenses.  The SL2 makes it far easier for people like me to use the M lenses.

So yes, an SL  in an M body is perfect [if at all possible]

[lct]

14 minutes ago, jrichie said:

So yes, an SL  in an M body is perfect [if at all possible]

Ouch... Too bad i hoped to find a new friend here 😉 M lenses don't deserve to be tortured by adapters.

[ksrhee]

30 minutes ago, lct said:

Hehe the old quarrel between ancient and modern resurfaces here. For some of us, M is the name of a lens mount more so than a rangefinder. Leica will resist as long as ancient will breath i guess but all hope is not lost for newbies and oldies falling back in childhood like me 😀

Actually M comes from Messsucher which stands for rangerfinder.  So, it's more the camera than the lens.  For those who are making an argument for using the M lenses in the modern body, there are cameras you can use with the M lenses (adapter) that will satisfy your need, especially given that they are manual focus lenses to start with.  

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, _leicaguru said:

I don't understand this. Why would you shoot something at ISO1,000,000? Whats the focal length, aperture and shutter speed? 

That was a typo :). It should have been ISO 100,000. 

The image below was taken with a 35mm lens at 1/15 sec, f/2.0, ISO1250 underexposed, and 2.45 stops raised in the post (effective ISO 5000). Without IBIS, I would have had to shoot at 1/140, requiring a four-stop higher ISO.

 

 

1 hour ago, _leicaguru said:

Check Brassai: Paris by Night. 

Brassai used a tripod and flash. I was talking about handheld shooting without a flash.

[lct]

1 minute ago, ksrhee said:

Actually M comes from Messsucher which stands for rangerfinder.

Fist time i hear this in half a century 😄 Just kidding. Rangefinders existed before the M appeared.

[SrMi]

51 minutes ago, _leicaguru said:

 

😅 The wishlist for the M12 describes any mirroless camera now. Plus autofocus. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ChatGPT is wrong, as it is often used for many things related to photography (no EFCS in SL2, etc).

[SrMi]

15 hours ago, _leicaguru said:

The megapixel and uber corrected lenses is a never ending rabbit hole that the M should have never been a part of, but here we are. The M should go back to the 40MP sensor that was so nice.

I do not know of any "uber-corrected" M lenses, which are also supposed to work on film cameras. 

60MP is only 20% more resolution than 40MP. State-of-the-art BSI high-resolution FF sensors are 60MP, so Leica has little choice. The BSI technology allows better handling of steep incident angles and faster sensor readout (electronic shutter, metering).

 

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, jrichie said:

So yes, an SL  in an M body is perfect [if at all possible]

Other than a desire for legacy cosmetics, why does it have to be an M body? Why not just say an EVF semi-compact full fame body that can use M or L lenses? Essentially a Q with interchangeable lenses. Lighter, but by no means as small as an M. Gives Leica a lot more leeway to produce a camera that actually works as the technophiles would want it to work. But really, may as well just get a Q, or an SL or Nikon Zf with an adaptor and leave the classic M to do what it does best.  

[anonymoose]

As someone that's been shooting M cameras for just under 4 weeks (yes, weeks) I feel like I should weigh in as an abject authority on this matter (😆)--the M11 is really nice as-is.

I'd like to make a list of things I don't want to see in the M12:

• A lack of rangefinder or a rangefinder excessively burdened by a tiny OLED in-lay (like the X100V) that adds very little value.
• Tilting rear screen ruining the aesthetics/simplicity of the rear. That ruined the Q3 for me and I went back to the Q2 for that among some other reasons.
• More buttons.
• Bigger or heavier.

What I would like to see:

• Better protected USB-C port. I'd like to not think twice about where I'm setting the camera.
• An official IP rating or claim related to weather sealing for peace of mind.
• Higher resolution rear panel would be nice, but not necessary.
• Repurposed ISO wheel or maybe remove it to clean up the body lines? Haven't spent enough time with the camera to have a strong opinion here.
• Larger RF window on user side if possible--my eyelashes frequently run into it and interrupt the process.

The M11 is a pretty fantastic camera so far and I'm really enjoying the experience specifically because it's a simpler RF camera. Anything that moves it closer to a standard mirrorless camera would probably ruin what drew me to the M system.

Edited February 4 by anonymoose

[SrMi]

M10 was a fantastic camera, and M11 is an even better camera because it changed in ways that some did not like. M12 will be an even better camera by introducing changes to M11, which some will not like. This is the way. 

 

[lct]

M12 sans IBIS really? Second M in history unable to use slow shutter speeds w/o tripod or rock solid hands. The M11 had excuses but the M12, serious? Sounds like i will stick to the M11 then.

[jrichie]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Other than a desire for legacy cosmetics, why does it have to be an M body? Why not just say an EVF semi-compact full fame body that can use M or L lenses? Essentially a Q with interchangeable lenses. Lighter, but by no means as small as an M. Gives Leica a lot more leeway to produce a camera that actually works as the technophiles would want it to work. But really, may as well just get a Q, or an SL or Nikon Zf with an adaptor and leave the classic M to do what it does best.  

yes I meant size, not the same body......

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[_leicaguru]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Other than a desire for legacy cosmetics, why does it have to be an M body? Why not just say an EVF semi-compact full fame body that can use M or L lenses? Essentially a Q with interchangeable lenses. Lighter, but by no means as small as an M. Gives Leica a lot more leeway to produce a camera that actually works as the technophiles would want it to work. But really, may as well just get a Q, or an SL or Nikon Zf with an adaptor and leave the classic M to do what it does best.  

it just makes them feel cool. The camera they want is an SL. They want to jam a new SL into an M body to look cool.

[_leicaguru]

1 hour ago, lct said:

M12 sans IBIS really? Second M in history unable to use slow shutter speeds w/o tripod or rock solid hands. The M11 had excuses but the M12, serious? Sounds like i will stick to the M11 then.

The megapixel race is why anyone needs IBIS in an M. There is really no other reason. Plus the chase of sharpness and generic perfection in their lenses. More megapixels. Sharper. Describes every new camera out there.