M12 wishlist

[Derbyshire Man]

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3 hours ago, evikne said:

I would love this, even though it's unlikely.

I would hate both!

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[Jon Warwick]

M12 wish list = more megapixels than 60mp, ie, progress towards 100mp. And make a Monochrom version of it too.

I print to 45” wide often from my M11 (and cut it down to 40”x30”’print). Image quality is immaculate at that print size off the M11, but I’d like the option to print even larger at the same image quality.

I think various aspects of the M11 such as the triple resolution DNGs could be extended to give flexibility if one doesn’t want the highest resolution DNG in an M12; and Leica Perspective Control would benefit from as much resolution as possible, given the partial crop from its correction. 

[SrMi]

10 hours ago, JNK100 said:

I am against points one and two as I like simplicity in an M camera. If IBIS was added it would make the camera thicker I think in addition and would add cost.

If Leica switches to stacked sensors and eliminates the mechanical shutter, the camera can stay the same thickness with IBIS and should be cheaper.

[elmars]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

and should be cheaper

🤣🤣🤣

[SrMi]

14 minutes ago, elmars said:

🤣🤣🤣

You are right 😊.

I confused it with another outlandish Leica idea: an EVF only M mount camera. There, the complex rangefinder mechanism would be eliminated and that could make it cheaper. Replacing the mechanical shutter with a stacked sensor and IBIS is probably not going to reduce the price of an M.

[phojomatic]

9 hours ago, SrMi said:

If Leica switches to stacked sensors and eliminates the mechanical shutter, the camera can stay the same thickness with IBIS and should be cheaper.

You bring up something here that Leica asked us about in a future M survey I think one year ago? If Fujifilm can add IBIS to the X100 series with no thickness difference, than Leica should be able too. Granted the X100 has a leaf shutter, so that might make a difference.

Another possible benefit is if the physical shutter was eliminated, the startup time could be quicker. The camera would need a dust shield like the Z9 series to protect the sensor though, so not sure if the open/close dance of a shutter vs. dust shield makes a difference.

[JNK100]

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1 hour ago, phojomatic said:

You bring up something here that Leica asked us about in a future M survey I think one year ago? If Fujifilm can add IBIS to the X100 series with no thickness difference, than Leica should be able too. Granted the X100 has a leaf shutter, so that might make a difference.

Another possible benefit is if the physical shutter was eliminated, the startup time could be quicker. The camera would need a dust shield like the Z9 series to protect the sensor though, so not sure if the open/close dance of a shutter vs. dust shield makes a difference.

The X100vi with ibis is 2mm deeper in fact than the 100v without ibis...

[charlesphoto99]

1 hour ago, phojomatic said:

You bring up something here that Leica asked us about in a future M survey I think one year ago? If Fujifilm can add IBIS to the X100 series with no thickness difference, than Leica should be able too. Granted the X100 has a leaf shutter, so that might make a difference.

Another possible benefit is if the physical shutter was eliminated, the startup time could be quicker. The camera would need a dust shield like the Z9 series to protect the sensor though, so not sure if the open/close dance of a shutter vs. dust shield makes a difference.

The Fuji X100 is not full frame (APS-C). So what you really want is an updated version of the Leica CL? 

No idea what Leica can't seem to get quicker startup times in the M. It was never a problem with Nikon's pre-mirrorless sir's, or Canon, Sony, etc. 

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The Fuji X100 is not full frame (APS-C). So what you really want is an updated version of the Leica CL? 

No idea what Leica can't seem to get quicker startup times in the M. It was never a problem with Nikon's pre-mirrorless sir's, or Canon, Sony, etc. 

It's clearly got to power up the sensor and open the shutter but my Canon R5 mk2 does that in a fraction of a second from cold and ready to go, never mind sleep.

[ksrhee]

3 hours ago, phojomatic said:

You bring up something here that Leica asked us about in a future M survey I think one year ago? If Fujifilm can add IBIS to the X100 series with no thickness difference, than Leica should be able too. Granted the X100 has a leaf shutter, so that might make a difference.

 

Let's not forget that the Fuji X100 is not a rangefinder camera.  So, its internals are quite different from the M11.

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

It's clearly got to power up the sensor and open the shutter but my Canon R5 mk2 does that in a fraction of a second from cold and ready to go, never mind sleep.

Canon R5 is very quick to wake up. On the other hand, Canon R takes more than 2 seconds. The Sony A7rIV takes 1.3 seconds, and the Nikon Z7 takes 1.5 seconds to wake up. Leica M11's wake-up time is in the ballpark of most mirrorless cameras.

The Leica M11 wakes up quickly from sleep. @jonoslack recommended: "Camera Standby set to Off, and Display Standby set to 30 seconds."

[evikne]

Has the possibility of a digital Leica screw mount camera ever been discussed, perhaps with a fixed 35 or 50 mm lens?* Of course without a screen or any other modern features. I think it could be really cool!

*A fixed lens would of course trigger the eternal discussion about which is better of 35 and 50 mm. 😉

[adan]

"Screw mount" implies interchangable lenses. Otherwise why a "mount" at all? Just weld the lens on.

But if you mean the size and art-deco cosmetics of the "Barnack cameras," the first was tried with the digital CL (and an APS-C sensor), and the second could have been done using the same platform - for a price, no doubt (would have taken a lot of reworking of the multi-function control knobs to make them dedicated "shutter" and "aperture" controls.

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There was this (with an even smaller sensor), from Minox (once briefly a Leica subsidiary).

https://newatlas.com/minox-dcc-14/26852/

[jrichie]

I cannot disagree with this.  Exactly what I want in an M12.  EVF, IBIS and stacked sensor.

maybe the rear of the camera can be modernised with it, with a flush screen [or moveable !]  and buttons on the right side like the Q3 and SL3

On 2/1/2025 at 5:57 PM, SrMi said:

You are right 😊.

I confused it with another outlandish Leica idea: an EVF only M mount camera. There, the complex rangefinder mechanism would be eliminated and that could make it cheaper. Replacing the mechanical shutter with a stacked sensor and IBIS is probably not going to reduce the price of an M.

 

[_leicaguru]

4 hours ago, jrichie said:

Exactly what I want in an M12.  EVF, IBIS and stacked sensor.

So the dream Leica M rangefinder is to kill the rangefinder and make it a common manual focus mirrorless camera.

[_leicaguru]

On 1/23/2025 at 8:40 AM, Stevejack said:

Hopfully Leica is paying attention to feedback and simply releases two versions of the M12; an evf only version with all the bells and whistles, and a proper rangefinder which is 100% focused on just being a good rangefinder without all the un-needed tech. The M11 is trying to satisfy both and as a result it's not doing either particularly well.   

I could go with this idea. For me the ideal M is completely bare bones. The LCD should be there only to check exposure/review shots. The menu should have only a few items in it. Otherwise it shouldn't have anything else. Most of the R&D should go to the sensor itself. The other should be to keep the camera internals very simple and electronics sourced from the best partners. The more simple the more reliable. 

If they want to make an SL camera that looks like a Leica M then that's fine. They should make it L mount and just give it autofocus also. Just leave the rangefinder to be a rangefinder. Easy and simple.

Some people think M means M-mount to shoot M lenses. I happen to think M means rangefinder and it is reason to even spend this much to buy a Leica M. If anything they should only focus on making the rangefinder experience even better.

The Panaleica people are talking about can be just based on this. Make it full frame and give it an L-mount. Sell it for $2,000. Hi res EVF 120fps, IBIS, AF, stacked whatever, 30fps, unlimited buffer, animal eye detection, let's give it everything. What's more fun than a fully automated and stabilized Leica M? No hard work needed to get any shots. It'll be great for creativity.

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Edited February 3 by _leicaguru

[MeleeGhillie]

5 hours ago, jrichie said:

I cannot disagree with this.  Exactly what I want in an M12.  EVF, IBIS and stacked sensor.

maybe the rear of the camera can be modernised with it, with a flush screen [or moveable !]  and buttons on the right side like the Q3 and SL3

 

I think very few M users would want this in an M camera, EVF, moving sensor, speed, that’s against everything that made the M so special. 
 

Maybe an SL3, a7cR or the sigma FP would suit your demands much better.

Edited February 3 by MeleeGhillie

[SrMi]

7 minutes ago, MeleeGhillie said:

I think very few M users would want this in an M camera, EVF, moving sensor, speed, that’s against everything that made the M so special. 
 

Maybe an SL3, a7cR or the sigma FP would suit your demands much better.

I don't see how a "moving" sensor goes against what makes the M so special. Whether it moves (IBIS) or is fixed does not affect the camera's ergonomics, except that a fixed sensor makes sensor cleaning easier. What makes an M an M is the rangefinder, simplicity, M-mount, and size. Whether the sensor is CCD, CMOS, FSI, BSI, or stacked, and whether it moves or is fixed, does not influence the M experience.

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[_leicaguru]

36 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I don't see how a "moving" sensor goes against what makes the M so special. Whether it moves (IBIS) or is fixed does not affect the camera's ergonomics, except that a fixed sensor makes sensor cleaning easier. What makes an M an M is the rangefinder, simplicity, M-mount, and size. Whether the sensor is CCD, CMOS, FSI, BSI, or stacked, and whether it moves or is fixed, does not influence the M experience.

For me is making the experience easier. The easiest and more automated for me it kills creativity. People have been taking photos on the M for 70 years without IBIS...And every photo imaginable have been taken with them. Adding IBIS fundamentally changes the experience of shooting a rangefinder for me. 

[Calvin]

On the EVF, it would be great to have EVF that simulates the rangefinder with focus patch (much larger and brighter) and also accurately laid out frame lines calculated based on actual range. At a flip of a switch, you can go to the typical mirrorless TTL look with focus peaking and even simulated focus patch 😀 Best of both worlds and actually improved over both. It would take some R&D to get there and this will be expensive as Leica would be the sole user of it, but hopefully not as expensive over time as mechanical rangefinders. The resultant unit would be lighter and not require periodic rangefinder maintenance. Most importantly, it doesn’t take away from traditional rangefinder experience.

I also like IBIS. Stacked sensor can be useful but hopefully, it can be adaptive so you don’t or lose less image quality when the scene is relatively static and the sensor can be read more slowly. I suppose this would be an evolution of current stacked sensors and this development is already in place. If it eliminates mechanical sensor, might justify having it without raising the price.

Startup time is also mentioned. I have missed fair share of shots to slow startup. My Z8 is almost instantaneous to M11. I think they can optimize the shutter open and close and keep curtain open more often to avoid having to wait for curtain to open. For M, I feel this wait is even more disruptive than for regular mirrorless because you expect the camera to be tactile whereas for mirrorless like the Z8, I keep it in silent mode all the time and I expect it to work like an electronic device.

and would it be time to introduce a new line of electronic M lenses that transmit EXIF and aperture info, maybe even add AF (oops) and VR? Nikon has had hybrid mechanical electronic F mount for a long time. Many would kill me if I mention any equipment and particularly lenses with electronics, so I just mention. Leica certainly would be happy for extended upgrade cycle for lenses.

And lastly, that pesky lens release button that’s on the wrong side. Perhaps I’m conditioned to switching Nikon lenses but really feel it’s easier to switch lens if button is not blocked by grip and away from the master hand still holding the camera. 

since I’m on this topic, the frame change lever can have an additional programmable function button on it. Oh, and I don’t mind having that fake film advance lever to make me look like a camera god. If not standard, then as an accessory 😀