M12 wishlist

[algrove]

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20 hours ago, D. Burst said:

Forget the data-reduced shooting options that none of the M11 photographers I know use.
I was surprised to see that this outdated sensor layout was still installed in the SL-3.

Same here,  but the original M11 marketing BS convinced many that M-DNG and S-DNG had improved DR over the full DNG. Many experts tested this and found that NOT to be the case. Even Leica Miami YouTube videos more than once stated their findings.

Edited April 11, 2024 by algrove

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[ksrhee]

3 hours ago, algrove said:

Same here,  but the original M11 marketing BS convinced many that M-DNG and S-DNG had improved DR over the full DNG. Many experts tested this and found that NOT to be the case. Even Leica Miami YouTube videos more than once stated their findings.

I hate to disagree, but pixel binning does work.  It is science, not just marketing ploy.  Also, the reviewers I trust, Sean Reid and Mathphotographer (YouTube) have done the test to show that the Medium DNG offers one extra stop advantage over full DNG (goes from 14 for full to 15 for medium).  

Edited April 12, 2024 by ksrhee

[algrove]

2 hours ago, ksrhee said:

I hate to disagree, but pixel binning does work.  It is science, not just marketing ploy.  Also, the reviewers I trust, Sean Reid and Mathphotographer (YouTube) have done the test to show that the Medium DNG offers one extra stop advantage over full DNG (goes from 14 for full to 15 for medium).  

Well, I have asked a trusted Leica employee and he says it might be a gain of 1/3 a stop going from full to M or S-DNG.

[lct]

Strange that pixel binning thing. Do other camera makers follow the same route with high res sensors? Sigma doesn't apparently but i don't know about others. I hoped it helped fixing the so-called camera shake issue with slow shutter speeds but it didn't for me. Now that i know it is science,i will perhaps give it another try 😇

[DanielLeica]

Just out of curiosity. There has been a lot of speculations on when a M12 can hit the market, I have read reports about this year, for the anniversary as well as at the earliest next year. What are your guys thoughts about it?

[WvE]

Only Wetzlar knows, but I'd think that they want to issue the M12 fast-forward, and close the somewhat troubled M11 chapter. On the other hand, they need to make sure the M12 does the job. 

[lct]

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Assuming the M11 is the commercial success announced by Leica, i guess they are not in a hurry to update it but i have no info about that.

[evikne]

3 hours ago, DanielLeica said:

Just out of curiosity. There has been a lot of speculations on when a M12 can hit the market, I have read reports about this year, for the anniversary as well as at the earliest next year. What are your guys thoughts about it?

Before an M12, there will probably be an M11-D, and maybe even another version of the M11. So probably no M12 in the near future.

[ksrhee]

4 hours ago, DanielLeica said:

Just out of curiosity. There has been a lot of speculations on when a M12 can hit the market, I have read reports about this year, for the anniversary as well as at the earliest next year. What are your guys thoughts about it?

I would guess Jan 2016 or Jan 2017. So not in the near future. 

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, ksrhee said:

I hate to disagree, but pixel binning does work.  It is science, not just marketing ploy.  Also, the reviewers I trust, Sean Reid and Mathphotographer (YouTube) have done the test to show that the Medium DNG offers one extra stop advantage over full DNG (goes from 14 for full to 15 for medium).  

There is no pixel binning in Leica cameras (merging 4 or more pixels into one). The resolution reduction occurs in firmware after all pixels have been read from sensor. Leica has said that the effect is the same as using size reduction in Photoshop. That means, when looking at the same output size, there is no relevant difference in DR.

I have tried it and you can do too. You will see no difference in noise when comparing at the same output size.

Edited April 12, 2024 by SrMi

[jdlaing]

5 hours ago, ksrhee said:

I would guess Jan 2016 or Jan 2017. So not in the near future. 

2016 or 2017? We must have missed it.

[Jeff S]

Back to the future.

Jeff

[cookedart]

My personal wish list for M12:

- Stacked Sensor. Currently the electronic shutter readout is too slow, and causes rolling shutter issues on fast moving subjects. This might be extreme, but I would be ok with losing the focal plane shutter entirely in favor of a fast readout, stacked sensor, electronic shutter. For this concerned with going to this extreme, I believe the Nikon Z8 has already done this.

- IBIS. If we get some 'space' back inside the body from removing the focal plane shutter, I would use that space for an IBIS unit. The M is a handheld system, so having IBIS seems pretty critical on this system with high resolution we are getting to.

- Standardize the battery between the SL, Q, and M. It feels like they are introducing all sorts of options for the BP- SCL6 battery (such as a dual charger with USB-C, as well a dummy battery to power the camera with an external power source) - so it makes sense to me to put this camera into the M as well.

- For the Rangefinder, I'm always a fan of them making the eye relief even greater (i.e. the entrance pupil diameter). With eyeglasses, I can just barely see the edge of the 35mm framelines. I would love to see the 28mm framelines, without adjusting the current magnification.

- This is probably controversial, but I would love to see if Leica could build in the EVF into the viewfinder rather than have it be a shoe mount accessory. To be clear, this would ideally work like the hybrid finder on the X100 series - something you could toggle between. They could even use the OLED to be able to customize the frameline and information within the OVF, if done properly. If they introduce a new visoflex instead, it would be better to have it be lockable and higher res/higher refresh rate. While on the topic of viewfinder, I would love to have the option of multiple different aspect ratios within both the EVF and OVF (specifically more options than we currently have - would love to see 4:5, 65:24, etc).

- From the the Nikon ZF, the subject detect AF pixels are able to identify eyes and faces within a scene, and punch in specifically to those hilighted areas for critical focus. I think this would be great for wide and long lenses that require EVF use on an M. 

- Find a way to weather seal (ip53 or great) the entire system. Even if it means adding a rubber o-ring to the mount itself. I want the M to be the most rugged system possible. I am ok with them updating their lenses too to achieve this, if necessary.

- I love the tilt screen on the Q3. If they could create a more slim version that integrates into the lines of the M, it would be ideal.

- I personally prefer a joystick nub to the four way controller. I'd be ok with them transplanting this from the SL series onto the M.

- I personally prefer the memory card door to be separate from the battery compartment. The Q3 achieves this by making a card door on the bottom plate, but the ideal position is a door on the side so it can be accessed while on a tripod. I prefer a door underneath your palm, and it would great for a hybird expressCard/SD card option. 

- I personally think making some sort of solution for the thumb support to be integrated makes more sense than having to add an auxiliary grip. It helps the grip with even small lenses. The small indent on the Q is a good way to accomplish this, though they could push this even further. Again, this might be sacrilege on the M, but I don't think the thumb grips look necessarily better.

[thrid]

56 minutes ago, cookedart said:

My personal wish list for M12:

- Stacked Sensor. Currently the electronic shutter readout is too slow, and causes rolling shutter issues on fast moving subjects. This might be extreme, but I would be ok with losing the focal plane shutter entirely in favor of a fast readout, stacked sensor, electronic shutter. For this concerned with going to this extreme, I believe the Nikon Z8 has already done this.

- IBIS. If we get some 'space' back inside the body from removing the focal plane shutter, I would use that space for an IBIS unit. The M is a handheld system, so having IBIS seems pretty critical on this system with high resolution we are getting to.

- Standardize the battery between the SL, Q, and M. It feels like they are introducing all sorts of options for the BP- SCL6 battery (such as a dual charger with USB-C, as well a dummy battery to power the camera with an external power source) - so it makes sense to me to put this camera into the M as well.

- For the Rangefinder, I'm always a fan of them making the eye relief even greater (i.e. the entrance pupil diameter). With eyeglasses, I can just barely see the edge of the 35mm framelines. I would love to see the 28mm framelines, without adjusting the current magnification.

- This is probably controversial, but I would love to see if Leica could build in the EVF into the viewfinder rather than have it be a shoe mount accessory. To be clear, this would ideally work like the hybrid finder on the X100 series - something you could toggle between. They could even use the OLED to be able to customize the frameline and information within the OVF, if done properly. If they introduce a new visoflex instead, it would be better to have it be lockable and higher res/higher refresh rate. While on the topic of viewfinder, I would love to have the option of multiple different aspect ratios within both the EVF and OVF (specifically more options than we currently have - would love to see 4:5, 65:24, etc).

- From the the Nikon ZF, the subject detect AF pixels are able to identify eyes and faces within a scene, and punch in specifically to those hilighted areas for critical focus. I think this would be great for wide and long lenses that require EVF use on an M. 

- Find a way to weather seal (ip53 or great) the entire system. Even if it means adding a rubber o-ring to the mount itself. I want the M to be the most rugged system possible. I am ok with them updating their lenses too to achieve this, if necessary.

- I love the tilt screen on the Q3. If they could create a more slim version that integrates into the lines of the M, it would be ideal.

- I personally prefer a joystick nub to the four way controller. I'd be ok with them transplanting this from the SL series onto the M.

- I personally prefer the memory card door to be separate from the battery compartment. The Q3 achieves this by making a card door on the bottom plate, but the ideal position is a door on the side so it can be accessed while on a tripod. I prefer a door underneath your palm, and it would great for a hybird expressCard/SD card option. 

- I personally think making some sort of solution for the thumb support to be integrated makes more sense than having to add an auxiliary grip. It helps the grip with even small lenses. The small indent on the Q is a good way to accomplish this, though they could push this even further. Again, this might be sacrilege on the M, but I don't think the thumb grips look necessarily better.

This camera already exists and is made by four or five other companies. 

I really don't understand why people want to turn the M series into just another cookie cutter EVF camera, instead of concentrating on improving the basic features without changing the concept.  

We all want a better sensor, improved shutter and weather sealing, less bugs in the firmware, better overall performance like reduced startup times or the ability to see the 28mm frame lines without having to be related to Marty Feldman. But those are just improvements on the basic concept. 

The entire raison d'etre for the M is simplicity.

Once you start adding things like a flip out screen, a thumb rest, hybrid EVF, autofocus etc you're basically asking for a full frame Fuji X-Pro at triple the price. There are at least a dozen cameras already on the market that have all of these features minus a red dot and sell for a fraction of the cost.

The great irony of course is that the rest of the industry is constantly using the M series to pitch their latest EVF wonder, as a 'rangefinder style camera' to the masses, when in fact there is no equivalent on the market and the M series is the only true rangefinder left in existence. 

So, why would we attempt to saw off the very branch we are sitting on by fundamentally changing the gestalt of the camera?

Edited April 12, 2024 by thrid

[ksrhee]

34 minutes ago, thrid said:

This camera already exists and is made by four or five other companies. 

I really don't understand why people want to turn the M series into just another cookie cutter EVF camera, instead of concentrating on improving the basic features without changing the concept.  

Sometimes, I feel like I'm a lone voice in this forum, but I'm glad there are others like me.  I am in the M camp right now for what it is offering right now, not what it doesn't offer or what other camera manufacturers are offering for their cameras.   As you said, if I wanted all these things folks are clamoring for, I would buy another brand at a lower price.  Now, someone says Leica is the best, and you can't get that from other cameras, but that's not entirely true, and also I would say you all knew what you were getting into.  Leica did not mislead you in any way.  This also makes me wonder whether people bought their Leicas for its unique propositions, or just the name Leica . . .  I know this might not be a popular post, but it needs to be said.  

Keep it basic and simple, and focus on improving quality.

Edited April 12, 2024 by ksrhee

[lct]

10 minutes ago, thrid said:

I really don't understand why people want to turn the M series into just another cookie cutter EVF camera [....]

I suppose they (we?) just like M lenses. Why not using a Visoflex or any other EVF to take photos with those gems?

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, cookedart said:

This is probably controversial, but I would love to see if Leica could build in the EVF into the viewfinder rather than have it be a shoe mount accessory. To be clear, this would ideally work like the hybrid finder on the X100 series - something you could toggle between.

The Fuji has no rangefinder. Stefan Daniel has stated that Leica experimented with the hybrid approach -RF and EVF - but that resulted in unacceptable compromises to both viewing systems due to space issues.  He called it a “no-go.”

And that’s without IBIS, separate card compartment, more weather seals, tilt screen etc.  🐷

Jeff

Edited April 12, 2024 by Jeff S

[ksrhee]

14 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The Fuji has no rangefinder. Stefan Daniel has stated that Leica experimented with the hybrid approach -RF and EVF - but that resulted in unacceptable compromises to both viewing systems due to space issues.  He called it a “no-go.”

And that’s without IBIS, separate card compartment, more weather seals, tilt screen etc.  🐷

Jeff

That's because the RF viewing system takes up a lot of real estate inside the camera.   It is interesting when I explain to folks what goes into the system, they are often surprised.  Fuji doesn't have the same system.  

Edited April 12, 2024 by ksrhee

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[lct]

28 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

[...] Stefan Daniel has stated that Leica experimented with the hybrid approach -RF and EVF - but that resulted in unacceptable compromises to both viewing systems due to space issues.  He called it a “no-go.” [...]

Indeed but Stefan Daniel stated also 4 years ago that « IBIS is desirable and would work well with M lenses [...] if it became feasible to introduce IBIS without increasing size it is something that could be done quickly » (link).

[Jeff S]

24 minutes ago, ksrhee said:

That's because the RF viewing system takes up a lot of real estate inside the camera.   It is interesting when I explain to folks what goes into the system, they are often surprised.  Fuji doesn't have the same system.  

Which is why I explained it to you… after you asked for a hybrid system.. plus the sun and stars. 🤪

Jeff