The SL3 stills firmware update and feature requests thread.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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I did actually mean EITHER a b&w DNG or a b&w profile readable by Adobe (and others if they wish). The 2nd is preferable although I'd have both or either.

For a mono DNG:

1. Of course you can have a mono DNG from a bayer camera. Pixii and Nikon (Zf) both do it already.

2. You'd have exactly the same editing capabilities as a monochrom DNG just with less robustness and more noise. Somewhere between editing a jpeg and a raw file, I would estimate. Sure, not as powerful in editing as having colour information. But fine for almost everything, really. And it'll be optional?? Duh.

3. Yes, I want this so I can choose to switch back and forth in camera from colour to b&w. Unless Leica make me a one off Monochrom SL3. No, I don't want to do this in post. I want to do it in camera and have the software read it for me because I'll be days from when I made that decision and my coffee riddled brain won't remember.

4. No I don't want to have to shoot jpegs and import them as separate files in Lightroom. That's just stupid. Currently the only workflow. But still stupid. I shoot thousands of frames on trips. Now I have to double that number in my library or spend HOURS sorting and culling? No thanks. I have developed a workaround. It's not ideal though. 

5. It would be entirely possible for the starting point of said DNG to be the profile from the camera. I rather like the high contrast b&w and would have that as my start point. My editing would actually be quite minimal. Or give me an incredibly flat mono file and I'll sort it with Silver Efex.

For the instruction set:

6. Leica work with Adobe and C1. Adobe generally has the camera in database upon release. Surely, they can work together to make this happen if they want to. And so what if only Adobe adopts it? Offer it to everyone and those that take it up, take it up.

7. The instructions already exist at the Leica end. You can shoot DNG only and see those b&w files in Fotos. And work on them and export them. All from Fotos. If I had an iPad workflow, I could already do what I want but I like my real computer. It just needs Leica to request this from Adobe and C1.

8. you'd think the brand known for black and white wouldn't have so much negativity around black and white. But that's Leica for you.

Gordon

p.s. I have Monochrom cameras. Q2M, M10M and M11M. That's not the point. I can't use my APO SL Summicron's with those cameras and I don't always carry them when I shoot with the rather big SL system.

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[Dr. G]

 

29 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I did actually mean EITHER a b&w DNG or a b&w profile readable by Adobe (and others if they wish). The 2nd is preferable although I'd have both or either.

For a mono DNG:

1. Of course you can have a mono DNG from a bayer camera. Pixii and Nikon (Zf) both do it already.

2. You'd have exactly the same editing capabilities as a monochrom DNG just with less robustness and more noise. Somewhere between editing a jpeg and a raw file, I would estimate. Sure, not as powerful in editing as having colour information. But fine for almost everything, really. And it'll be optional?? Duh.

3. Yes, I want this so I can choose to switch back and forth in camera from colour to b&w. Unless Leica make me a one off Monochrom SL3. No, I don't want to do this in post. I want to do it in camera and have the software read it for me because I'll be days from when I made that decision and my coffee riddled brain won't remember.

4. No I don't want to have to shoot jpegs and import them as separate files in Lightroom. That's just stupid. Currently the only workflow. But still stupid. I shoot thousands of frames on trips. Now I have to double that number in my library or spend HOURS sorting and culling? No thanks. I have developed a workaround. It's not ideal though. 

5. It would be entirely possible for the starting point of said DNG to be the profile from the camera. I rather like the high contrast b&w and would have that as my start point. My editing would actually be quite minimal. Or give me an incredibly flat mono file and I'll sort it with Silver Efex.

For the instruction set:

6. Leica work with Adobe and C1. Adobe generally has the camera in database upon release. Surely, they can work together to make this happen if they want to. And so what if only Adobe adopts it? Offer it to everyone and those that take it up, take it up.

7. The instructions already exist at the Leica end. You can shoot DNG only and see those b&w files in Fotos. And work on them and export them. All from Fotos. If I had an iPad workflow, I could already do what I want but I like my real computer. It just needs Leica to request this from Adobe and C1.

8. you'd think the brand known for black and white wouldn't have so much negativity around black and white. But that's Leica for you.

Gordon

p.s. I have Monochrom cameras. Q2M, M10M and M11M. That's not the point. I can't use my APO SL Summicron's with those cameras and I don't always carry them when I shoot with the rather big SL system.

I remember when I used to shoot Sony that there were companies that would remove the Bayer filter from the sensor.  I'm sure it could be done if you really wanted to.

[jaapv]

Why would Leica introduce a half-baked solution when they have cameras that provide perfect monochrome DNGs. ? 

[Photoworks]

why should it not be easy?

Fuji can do it Capture one and LrC

the Camera Reala look is in the raw file tag and you can change it, but it is from the camera setting to begin with.

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Why would Leica introduce a half-baked solution when they have cameras that provide perfect monochrome DNGs. ? 

Not in an SL body they can't.

Gordon

[jaapv]

Well they certainly can but the question is whether they will, given that they already have two Monochrom series running. In any case I am sure that you would prefer a  real monochrome file over a hobbled one, everything else being equal. Case in point: when I go shooting B&W I will lève my SL, CL, S5ii at home and bring my M9M, together with my dedicated B&W lens set. Biogon C, Nokton 50-2 and Télé-Tessar 85. I won’t use those lenses for colour. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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15 hours ago, SrMi said:

 

You only need to press the button for 1.5 sec or less, but the camera needs longer to complete the process.

That's what I mean when I say I'd like the Leica logo to appear quicker. If it reliably appeared when the button had been pressed long enough, I can let go and let the camera do its thing. Right now, it's anywhere up to 5 seconds before the Leica logo appears. I'm not actually fussed if the camera takes several seconds to shut down. Just let me know when to stop pressing accurately.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well they certainly can but the question is whether they will, given that they already have two Monochrom series running. 

Not right now they can't. So then let me have a monochrom start point in LR from the colour data....

Gordon

Edited April 6, 2024 by FlashGordonPhotography

[jaapv]

4 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Not right now they can't. So then let me have a monochrom start point in LR from the colour data....

Gordon

Yes Lightroom is quite limited in this respect. With Phothshop one can choose Greyscale right at the beginning. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes Lightroom is quite limited in this respect. With Phothshop one can choose Greyscale right at the beginning. 

I can import with a preset in LR as well and have greyscale from the start. But that's STILL not the point. If I shoot a MIX of colour and b&w images on my SL3 which is possible to do with DNG ONLY set, I want to be able to see which was colour and which was b&w when I import into LR (or C1 for those who prefer it) without having to shoot jpegs. When I shoot this way on the SL3 NOW I can replay the *b&w* files in b&w and Fotos shows them as *b&w*, even though I shoot DNG ONLY. I just want LR to do the same.

I don't see how this got so complicated. It's not even a new function. It already exists in camera and in the Fotos app. I just want Leica to have a chat with Adobe to extend the functionality to my raw processor.

Maybe you should actually get hold of an SL3 as I don't think you get why I'm asking for this, until you see how close we already are. Fuji already does this. Why not Leica?

Gordon

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I can import with a preset in LR as well and have greyscale from the start. But that's STILL not the point. If I shoot a MIX of colour and b&w images on my SL3 which is possible to do with DNG ONLY set, I want to be able to see which was colour and which was b&w when I import into LR (or C1 for those who prefer it) without having to shoot jpegs. When I shoot this way on the SL3 NOW I can replay the *b&w* files in b&w and Fotos shows them as *b&w*, even though I shoot DNG ONLY. I just want LR to do the same.

I don't see how this got so complicated. It's not even a new function. It already exists in camera and in the Fotos app. I just want Leica to have a chat with Adobe to extend the functionality to my raw processor.

Maybe you should actually get hold of an SL3 as I don't think you get why I'm asking for this, until you see how close we already are. Fuji already does this. Why not Leica?

Gordon

As I wrote, Adobe needs to implement Color Matching Profiles for Leica cameras as they did for Fuji. I do not know who to put pressure on, Leica or Adobe.

[LocalHero1953]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

Why would Leica introduce a half-baked solution when they have cameras that provide perfect monochrome DNGs. ? 

Because Leica has been providing half-baked solutions since the Battle of Hastings e.g. Visoflex (esp. the original one), M viewfinder frame lines, D versions of digital M cameras, etc etc. Leica is about engineering compromises around a certain ideal theme, not perfection in all areas.

Even providing JPGs is a half-baked solution if your aim is to create the perfect image.

Edited April 6, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I can import with a preset in LR as well and have greyscale from the start. But that's STILL not the point. If I shoot a MIX of colour and b&w images on my SL3 which is possible to do with DNG ONLY set, I want to be able to see which was colour and which was b&w when I import into LR (or C1 for those who prefer it) without having to shoot jpegs. When I shoot this way on the SL3 NOW I can replay the *b&w* files in b&w and Fotos shows them as *b&w*, even though I shoot DNG ONLY. I just want LR to do the same.

I don't see how this got so complicated. It's not even a new function. It already exists in camera and in the Fotos app. I just want Leica to have a chat with Adobe to extend the functionality to my raw processor.

Maybe you should actually get hold of an SL3 as I don't think you get why I'm asking for this, until you see how close we already are. Fuji already does this. Why not Leica?

Gordon

I don’t think  this is specific to the SL3.  It is just the current product. So that is where the wish finds its focus.  I am just speculating to the reason why and trying to suggest a workaround. I quite see where you are coming from. 
As LR is non- destructive it should be easy to display an embedded monochrome JPG without reverting to a DNG B&W conversion. That only happens at export anyway; LR retains the original DNG ( which is not an image file but a data container) throughout the process. So it is just a matter of instructing LR how to display the file like it displays all other settings and profiles. 
The only thing that should happen is for Leica and Adobe to do so. It should not even require a firmware update but just a change in the import settings of Lightroom unless the DNG is incomplete. 

[jonoslack]

11 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I

7. The instructions already exist at the Leica end. You can shoot DNG only and see those b&w files in Fotos. And work on them and export them. All from Fotos. If I had an iPad workflow, I could already do what I want but I like my real computer. It just needs Leica to request this from Adobe and C1.

8. you'd think the brand known for black and white wouldn't have so much negativity around black and white. But that's Leica for you.

Gordon

p.s. I have Monochrom cameras. Q2M, M10M and M11M. That's not the point. I can't use my APO SL Summicron's with those cameras and I don't always carry them when I shoot with the rather big SL system.

Hi Gordon

The Lightroom connection is perhaps a possibility, but I would be really surprised if they produced monochrom DNG files as an option, because as Jaap says, it's a half baked solution and lots of people would use it and then complain that the files aren't as good as converting the DNG to monochrom in Lightroom (and they certainly wouldn't be as good). Personally I think it's a gimmick and I'm rather surprised that Nikon has done it. 

On the other hand I understand your desire, and I would have thought than an instruction to LR (which you have made in camera) would be a good option . . . .  . which would give you the best of both worlds. 

Me? if I can't tell whether I meant it to be black and white or mono, then it doesn't seem that there is any harm making the decision again!

best

Jono

[jonoslack]

52 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I don’t think  this is specific to the SL3.  It is just the current product. So that is where the wish finds its focus.  I am just speculating to the reason why and trying to suggest a workaround. I quite see where you are coming from. 
As LR is non- destructive it should be easy to display an embedded monochrome JPG without reverting to a DNG B&W conversion. That only happens at export anyway; LR retains the original DNG ( which is not an image file but a data container) throughout the process. So it is just a matter of instructing LR how to display the file like it displays all other settings and profiles. 
The only thing that should happen is for Leica and Adobe to do so. It should not even require a firmware update but just a change in the import settings of Lightroom unless the DNG is incomplete. 

I quite agree . . . .but whilst they're about it why not do it with all the 'Leica Looks' . . . 

[jaapv]

26 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Me? if I can't tell whether I meant it to be black and white or mono, then it doesn't seem that there is any harm making the decision again!

 

I'm worse - if I decide to do B&W I take my M9M - IMO the best monochrom files of all 😇. Behind the computer? Only in desperation at the colour result...🤪

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I'm worse - if I decide to do B&W I take my M9M - IMO the best monochrom files of all 😇. Behind the computer? Only in desperation at the colour result...🤪

I must dig out my M9M again - I haven't used it for a while . . . . rather nostalgic for that perCHang shutter noise!

[jonoslack]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

As I wrote, Adobe needs to implement Color Matching Profiles for Leica cameras as they did for Fuji. I do not know who to put pressure on, Leica or Adobe.

Leica I think - and I think the way to do it is in conjunction with Leica Looks - which they are already enthusiastic about. 

Go for it! I am 🤩

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[BernardC]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

As I wrote, Adobe needs to implement Color Matching Profiles for Leica cameras as they did for Fuji. I do not know who to put pressure on, Leica or Adobe.

It's an Adobe problem, but you should contact both companies. Adobe will ignore you, but they might respond to Leica.

[Photoworks]

not relevant, but could not resist. Lol