Monochrom DNG for SL3. Let's make it happen.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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So I'm shooting my newish SL3 in DNG only. Maybe I missed it on the SL2 but you can set the styles to monochrom when shooting DNG only. It plays back on the camera as a mono image. Even better it appears in the Fotos app as a monochrom image. Unfortunately these instructions aren't sent to Lightroom and you get a colour file.

So, Leica. Here's what I want. A monochrom DNG file from the SL3 that's respected by Lightroom. How 'bout it?

Gordon

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[frame-it]

10 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

So I'm shooting my newish SL3 in DNG only. Maybe I missed it on the SL2 but you can set the styles to monochrom when shooting DNG only. It plays back on the camera as a mono image. Even better it appears in the Fotos app as a monochrom image. Unfortunately these instructions aren't sent to Lightroom and you get a colour file.

So, Leica. Here's what I want. A monochrom DNG file from the SL3 that's respected by Lightroom. How 'bout it?

Gordon

like the fuji's, in lightroom a mono [acros etc] profile is added automatically?

[elmars]

The camera only needs to write development parameters that Lightroom understands into the DNG. It is the same as what we do when we set Lightroom to write the metadata to the DNG.

I spoke to Leica people about this about 2 years ago. They were interested. 

[Simone_DF]

The Pixii goes beyond that and produces a monochrome DNG through in camera processing

https://pixii.fr/monochrome

[SrMi]

SL3's DNGs already have embedded a Film Mode (Standard, Monochrome, ...) tag. Adobe is responsible for recognizing and applying that tag when reading the raw files.

In the list of supported cameras, Adobe lists SL cameras with "Camera Matching Profiles Available = No."

Edited March 28, 2024 by SrMi

[Dr. G]

What would be the advantage to having a monochrome DNG from the SL3?  Wouldn’t you lose the ability to adjust the color channels?  I realize you don’t have that ability with the Monochrom cameras, but you’re gaining dynamic range, shading gradation and effective resolution with those sensors.  

[jaapv]

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You don’t lose your colour channels with a Monochrom camera, just convert Greyscale to RGB very useful to create toning and to use Neural Filters like Colorize. 
The advantage of a monochrome sensor is not the fact that it produces an output without colour information but that it does so by not having a Bayer Filer -so no filter aberrations- and no interpolation thus no 30 % resolution loss One pixel on the sensor is one pixel in the print. A monochrome DNG from a color sensor would lose those advantages and would be exactly the same as a decolorized file in Photoshop. 

[Dr. G]

14 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You don’t lose your colour channels with a Monochrom camera, just convert Greyscale to RGB very useful to create toning and to use Neural Filters like Colorize. 
The advantage of a monochrome sensor is not the fact that it produces an output without colour information but that it does so by not having a Bayer Filer -so no filter aberrations- and no interpolation thus no 30 % resolution loss One pixel on the sensor is one pixel in the print. A monochrome DNG from a color sensor would lose those advantages and would be exactly the same as a decolorized file in Photoshop. 

Right, that’s kind of what I was getting at.  

[jaapv]

I rarely use LR but can’t you just use the B&W option in Basic? You won’t lose your DNG as LR is non-destructive and will only convert your DNG during Export whilst applying your edits of course. 

[BernardC]

29 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The advantage of a monochrome sensor is not the fact that it produces an output without colour information but that it does so by not having a Bayer Filer -so no filter aberrations- and no interpolation thus no 30 % resolution loss One pixel on the sensor is one pixel in the print. A monochrome DNG from a color sensor would lose those advantages and would be exactly the same as a decolorized file in Photoshop. 

The Pixii explanation for their process is that it is calibrated to the actual colour filters on their sensor, therefore the interpolation stage can be bypassed (or at least minimized). I haven't tried it, but reviews tend to agree that it's better than a Photoshop conversion, but not as good as a true monochrome sensor. The downside is that every pixel is modified in the raw file, so you can't go back to the colour version.

I set my SL to monochrome-JPEG even when I am shooting for colour, because I prefer to compose in black and white. Unfortunately, that trick doesn't work for video. People older than myself may remember that professional video cameras used greyscale viewfinders for decades. That's partly because greyscale monitors were sharper, but it also improved the operator's ability to judge exposure and composition.

[jaapv]

Skipping interpolation is a smart move as it mitigates the resolution loss problem. However the aberrations introduced by the microfilters of the Bayer array will remain.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

I rarely use LR but can’t you just use the B&W option in Basic? You won’t lose your DNG as LR is non-destructive and will only convert your DNG during Export whilst applying your edits of course. 

Yes.

The advantage is that I wouldn't have to remember which shots I've just set to b&w in camera (or shoot DNG+jpeg). On my last trip with the SL3 I bounced back and forth quite a lot and enjoyed it. Despite the advantages on the true mono sensor the SL3's sensor can still make excellent b&w files in the absence of a SL3M, and having to then identify and add an extra step to those files was an annoying bump in my workflow.

One of the new *Leicons* allows fast switching of the looks making moving between colour and b&w relatively seemless. That also carries through to image review and even Fotos. It'd be nice to have it flow through to LR Classic as well. I mostly make my b&w decisions in camera and it'd be a nice workflow bump to have LR read that information. All it would take is for Leica and Adobe to agree on it, basically. I think it would enhance the user experience for a lot of SL shooters.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, Dr. G said:

What would be the advantage to having a monochrome DNG from the SL3?  Wouldn’t you lose the ability to adjust the color channels?  I realize you don’t have that ability with the Monochrom cameras, but you’re gaining dynamic range, shading gradation and effective resolution with those sensors.  

Should have been clearer. I just want the profile selected shown as the starting point. Not necessarily removing the colour information as the advantages of that are small. LR can do this for other brands but doesn't for Leica, the brand that *leads* digital b&w workflow.

Gordon

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Should have been clearer. I just want the profile selected shown as the starting point. Not necessarily removing the colour information as the advantages of that are small. LR can do this for other brands but doesn't for Leica, the brand that *leads* digital b&w workflow.

Gordon

does Capture apply it if you set monochrome in the SL3?

Edited March 29, 2024 by frame-it

[FlashGordonPhotography]

19 minutes ago, frame-it said:

does Capture apply it if you set monochrome in the SL3?

No idea. I use LR exclusevly now.

Fotos does so the information is ready to be read.

Gordon

[Photoworks]

nice to have, but there is a reason why you find "styles" and Leica Looks in "JPG Settings"

 

NO, C1P applies the Camera profiles from C1P and does not read the style or LOOKS

[frame-it]

cool way to extract the icc camera profile from the raw file, think ill use this and save all the icc's and dump them into LR

exiftool -icc_profile -b -w icc  [raw file or jpg]

[RBNvRBN photo]

What Pixii does (as I understand it) is that they take the sensor reading at the pixel level and before the Bayer demosaicing they reproduce the light levels on each sensorsite (probably by adjusting level for the three filter colors at different levels, blue the most, green the least). That way they can (theoretically) have a better resolution image and create a RAW file without any color information. It doesn't have the ISO advantage (i.e. higher base sensitivity) of a true monochrome sensor as the filters are still physically there.

The conventional route is to create a color image (through the interpolation of the demosaicing process) and take the color out afterward. This yields a color RAW file as all the other steps are applied afterwards. However, I'm interested if there are quality related benefits from taking that Pixii route. Does the Pixii process yield a better image? If so, I would be interested to have this in our camera's. Now Pixii has a pending patent on this technology, but perhaps it could be licensed.

---

I agree that it is very annoying to see all the 'monochrome' images coming in Lightroom in color. There is some psychological thing going on. As I 'sort of' remember or envisage the monochrome image I took in my head (as I actually saw it through the EVF). When you import your images 'it is not there'... Very frustrating...

Also, the post processing is more complicated. For a good conversion you even have to work on the colors first, before going into B&W mode!! I know the underlying color info gives you more leeway. But I sometimes think that if I could devote the time spend on the conversion to careful selection and curves in a true monochrome file I would have a better end result (and certainly less frustration).

One of the things we love about our Leica's is simplicity... In the 'photographic journey' from capturing the image till the post processing. These final steps take away from that. It is these that are always remembered best (which is why Ikea gives you an ice cream or hotdog for € 1 after a frustrating wait for the register).

If this is the case, why not buy a Monochrom camera? Well because sometimes I do want color... And I'm not collecting Leica's as baseball cards - as some seem to do. I can only afford one. And even if win the lottery or my wife permits me to also buy a Monochrom I don't want to carry two. In conclusion (sorry for the long post :)) there definitely is a case of one camera that does both in a 'true way'.

---

So I hope Leica comes up with something and gives us true monochrome files on a color camera. Through licensed Pixii tech or some other clever way the excellent Leica technicians come up with. Note: to not cannibalize Monochrom sales it could even be a 'feature or special model' that I'm willing to pay extra for. As long as it is not a gimmick. 

When it comes to the Lightroom frustration. That needs to be addressed with Adobe. Not Leica. Note that I've never liked it. I do love Photoshop... Lightroom comes with the subscription, so it is not logical to switch to C1 (which does the same with color RAW's).

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[BernardC]

5 hours ago, RBNvRBN photo said:

However, I'm interested if there are quality related benefits from taking that Pixii route. Does the Pixii process yield a better image? If so, I would be interested to have this in our camera's. Now Pixii has a pending patent on this technology, but perhaps it could be licensed.

I agree that it is very annoying to see all the 'monochrome' images coming in Lightroom in color. There is some psychological thing going on. As I 'sort of' remember or envisage the monochrome image I took in my head (as I actually saw it through the EVF). When you import your images 'it is not there'... Very frustrating...

Pixii's method should retain more information, compared to a de-saturated colour image. I haven't tried it, but others have reported that their B&W raw images are very good.

I leave my EVF set to monochrome for stills, even when I am shooting for colour. I find it improves composition.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

The Pixii tech sounds really interesting. I don’t have one so I have no comment but from the above it sounds very interesting. I don’t think Leica would do it. It sounds good enough that it might impact Monochrom sales. And if they add that tech to the SL3 then everyone knows it can be done on the M11 and Q3. Is the b&w switch on the Nikon Zf similar?

As a small update I have found a less than perfect workaround to know which files I shot in mono on the SL3. I have created two basic profiles. One colour and one b&w. You can name them in the SL3 which is useful (hello Canon??). In the b&w profile I have set it to record a small jpeg as well as the DNG. Colour files are DNG only. AT least this way I know which files are the ones I saw in mono and go from there without having double files for every shot. I have also created a preset in LR so I can now select the *mono* DNGs and batch change them to my mono starting point.

I’d still like to see the Leica information passed to LR, like Fuji does but this will do for now.

Gordon