Despite the whingeing

[Derbyshire Man]

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I just wanted to write a micro thread saying that although I have moaned about the (in my case) very occasional crash and toothing issues, I absolutely love my M11-P in a way no previous camera has matched. There are still times when a Q3 or fuji X pro 3/X100vi or Canon 5d mk4 is what is needed by they don't have the same effect as the M11. While getting good images needs the right horse for the right course I know which one has the best industrial design and the most satisfying to use (short of *needing* autofocus).

Probably the closest in the past was my Canon T90 from many many years ago, probably no co-incidence that was manual focus too!

[Jamie Roberts]

Even though I'm just returning to the M system, I have to agree with you. The joy I get from shooting the M11P is unmatched by any other camera I've had so far (and my second favorite, these days, after years of shooting Canon, is the little Panasonic S5(x)ii--which also does a creditable job with Leica lenses!). 

[lct]

+1. Last time i was so glad with a camera must be in the film days with the Leica M6J.

[Tailwagger]

It does bear remembering from time to time that for all it's flaws, be they genetic or self-induced, shooting with an M remains a unique and special experience. Other cameras might be more technically capable, but none in my estimation feel as much of a partner in the process as does the M.

[Steadimann]

Agree. I love to shoot my M11P more than anything (went from Q2 to M11), especially for personal stuff.

[Edax]

23 hours ago, lct said:

+1. Last time i was so glad with a camera must be in the film days with the Leica M6J.

M6J, wow. Do you still own one?

Edited March 27, 2024 by Edax

[lct]

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33 minutes ago, Edax said:

M6J, wow. Do you still own one?

I have kept mine.

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[Big John]

On 3/26/2024 at 7:34 PM, Derbyshire Man said:

I just wanted to write a micro thread saying that although I have moaned about the (in my case) very occasional crash and toothing issues, I absolutely love my M11-P in a way no previous camera has matched. There are still times when a Q3 or fuji X pro 3/X100vi or Canon 5d mk4 is what is needed by they don't have the same effect as the M11. While getting good images needs the right horse for the right course I know which one has the best industrial design and the most satisfying to use (short of *needing* autofocus).

Probably the closest in the past was my Canon T90 from many many years ago, probably no co-incidence that was manual focus too!

T90! Wow, I remember those days. Am making the assumption you are referring to having one in its day and are therefore similar age to me. If so, would appreciate your thoughts pls on RF focusing with eyes of our age. Am happy with MF on my SL601. Thanks. 

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, Big John said:

T90! Wow, I remember those days. Am making the assumption you are referring to having one in its day and are therefore similar age to me. If so, would appreciate your thoughts pls on RF focusing with eyes of our age. Am happy with MF on my SL601. Thanks. 

I was 21 when I got it. Round about 1988. My dad was so impressed he bought one too! RF wise, I'm OK with a diopter adjustment but keep being mystified when I pass it to friends and they can't do a thing with it! Hahaha.

[Big John]

17 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I was 21 when I got it. Round about 1988. My dad was so impressed he bought one too! RF wise, I'm OK with a diopter adjustment but keep being mystified when I pass it to friends and they can't do a thing with it! Hahaha.

Same age!  Have thought about buying an M for, literally, 10 years. Even ordered on 2 occasions but changed mind. Hesitancy has always been around fantastic form factor, great IQ, beautiful lenses vs the anachronism of RF and concerns about focusing ability.  Bought an SL in 2016 and been using that, with ZM lenses.  Am close to getting an M6 to fulfil love of film (still have Nikon F5 from new) but want to replace the SL for newer digital. Current thinking is: SL3 looks great but as my wife keeps reminding me, big cameras mean I don’t take them out much; Q3 a possible but not sure I can do all with just 28mm; and finally, back to the M…..I just wish there was such noise about the freezing etc as it is really off putting. 

[marchyman]

1 hour ago, Big John said:

and concerns about focusing ability.

73.  Bought my first M 8 or 9 years ago. Never had an issue with focus even though I wear glasses with progressive lenses.   I did use a 1.25 magnifier when a 75mm lens was mounted to my M 262.   I do not need the magnifier with the M11 due to the viewfinder changes.

What can be an issue is motion blur.  60 megapixels exacerbates any camera shake.  Even so I don't find it to be much of an issue.

Also: I rarely shoot wide open as I prefer the look of a bit more depth of field.  I find f/4 to be perfect for most shots taken with the 75mm Summicron.  If you always shoot a 'lux wide open your experiences might not match mine.

[Derbyshire Man]

2 hours ago, Big John said:

Same age!  Have thought about buying an M for, literally, 10 years. Even ordered on 2 occasions but changed mind. Hesitancy has always been around fantastic form factor, great IQ, beautiful lenses vs the anachronism of RF and concerns about focusing ability.  Bought an SL in 2016 and been using that, with ZM lenses.  Am close to getting an M6 to fulfil love of film (still have Nikon F5 from new) but want to replace the SL for newer digital. Current thinking is: SL3 looks great but as my wife keeps reminding me, big cameras mean I don’t take them out much; Q3 a possible but not sure I can do all with just 28mm; and finally, back to the M…..I just wish there was such noise about the freezing etc as it is really off putting. 

My favourite remains the M11-P, also use a Q2M for low light, I find the rangefinder hard in low light portraiture as not enough contrast on eyelashes if truly dark, hence Q2M via focus peaking or in emergency autofocus does the trick, the additional resolution and IBIS means it's a low light monster. Still tempted to try an M11 monochrom but I'm not sure I could feel comfortable with kit in a bag of that value. Use Fuji x100vi/xpro x for colour AF (but now rare, just parties & leaving do's with work). In general terms I find the rangefinder easy to focus now I've got the correct diopter lens other than the eyelash in the dark problem but not sure I'd be better with a split prism etc.

WRT film, I can't say I'm tempted, I love monochrome but the conversions with silver efex on the Leica files are brilliant. If I am tempted I still have the T90 and its final love child the fabulous Canon 1v. I don't think I'd bother with the expense of a film Leica with those in the collection already;-)

[BillCB]

Quite apart from the pleasure of using the M cameras, they are beautiful to look at!  I'm nearly 80 yrs and have owned many, many cameras - none are as attractive to behold. I'm primarily a medium format guy (Phase One) but the cameras are not the sort of sculptures the M cameras are.

Incidentally, I just got back from a month-long trip with an M11 and M11-P. I took over 1500 shots and had no lock-ups or other problems on either camera. I took three batteries, one in each camera and one spare. I did not need to recharge at all - three was enough.

[DadDadDaddyo]

There's a muscle memory thing I've posted about before. Since the age of 14 I've been looking through Leica rangefinders. I'm 70 now. I've still got the IIIc and IIIg my Dad passed down, doing with a nice suite of barely post-war LTM lenses, from Leica, from Schneider, and from some outfit that called itself Nippon Kogaku...

At 35 I got my first M, an M3. It's now in the hands of one of our sons. I replaced it with an M4, and then got hold of another M4 while the first was off getting its long-awaited CLA at the hands of a master. 

So I've been peering through Leica rangefinders for something like 55 years now.

Like a heel and toe downshift into second gear going into a curve and then accelerating out of the curve and up into third: my hands just know how to do a Leica M. Like finding the light switch in my bedroom, or sliding into my slippers after closing up the recliner, or reaching for the tuning keys on my old Fender, everything just falls to hand where it should. It's just how my body thinks, no, how it *knows a camera is supposed to feel. 

And so it shows in the pictures. Without a thought, I put myself into positions I'd never naturally assume, just by looking through the viewfinder and permitting the shot to tell me where to put the camera. I can easily hold long, slow shutter speeds. I focus under all kinds of circumstances and don't even consciously think about which rangefinder technique or trick to use: it just happens. 

Sure, I've got the SL2, the 24-90, and the 90-280, for exactly the times they're the best thing to reach for, as well as the sublime 35 and the 50 mm Summicron Ls for the matchless mirrorless prime moments they enable. And, the somewhat hand-worn X-Pro2 because sometimes an APS-C body informed by rangefinder kinesthetics is all you need. 

So, yeah, despite the tempests (which, truthfully, seem to occur mostly in other people's teacups), I'm a confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool, old rangefinder originalist. I can see the reasoning behind all the innovations that have occurred, but I also feel, organically, the solutions offered by the Leica rangefinders to the photographic problems that inspired their designs. 

And it works for me. 

 

[Eoin]

I was browsing the threads and noticed the Canon T90 reference.
It reminded me of the lust I had for that camera in my youth (24) and the fact I still have it thrown in the bottom of a drawer somewhere.
It was the last film / manual focus camera I owned before moving to 100% digital.

With regard to the discussion at hand, I’ve shot digital M since the M8, skipped the M9 & M2xx and committed fully with the release of the M10.
In the intervening period between M8 and M10 I used Sony and still have the body and lenses which my kids use now and again.

Despite aging eyes, 60 now!, I still prefer to compromise and use my glasses when shooting which limits the usable frame lines to 35 and narrower.
Diopters (+3) bring their own problems requiring removal of glasses for shooting and wearing for menu navigation or review.

Even with the built in diopter adjustment on the Visioflex 020 and newer Visioflex 2, I still find the optical finder preferable and only use the Visioflexs when critical focus or framing is required. Along side the M10/M10-R I shoot a M11-M and a Q2-M, the M’s are my personal favourites despite the challenges ageing eyesight brings. The Q is an excellent camera, but is somehow just less satisfying in use, yet it has equally capable in output.

The design change of M11 vs M10 was a little unsettling at first, but they are essentially the same now in the hand despite the lack of density and different shutter action.
I’ve no desire to “invest” further in M bodies, I’ve everything I could possibly need except for the longevity and repairability of electronics into the future.
Photography has evolved so much over my lifetime, yet it has been the one constant in my life for personal joy and to record and remember many precious moments.
That evolution seems to have obscured or hindered easy access to the traditional exposure triangle of Shutter Speed, Aperture and ISO, that’s what endears Leica’s M design philosophy to me, my brain and muscle memory operate this way.

I’ve no interest in limited editions, retro editions, quite frankly … I’m appalled at the “cost” of getting into the Leica M eco system with their series offerings, but here I am.
I purposefully chose Leica lenses, to eliminate the GAS, more a “start with the best” and work back from there philosophy, but I’ve never felt the urge to recoup the cost with almost equally performant yet considerably cheaper offerings from Voightlander 
The lenses, with care will last the remainder of my life, the electronics I doubt very much. I just hope Leica keep a true M esque model in their line up rather than pander to the new generation who seem to want a M/Q hybrid of sorts.

 

 

[shirokurome]

Agreed. I love shooting with the M11M despite the very occasional freezing. Its the only camera I always take with me now when before I did not take my camera around with me much. Now i take it everywhere and shoot with it almost every day. Amazing camera.

[ZHNL]

+1

triple resolution plus e shutter with best sensor on the market, huge battery life boost, lightest M digital body(black). 
 

life is a trade off. 

[thrid]

Despite the quirky shutter cycle I have really come to love the M11.

This is my third digital M and the bottom line is that I have enjoyed all of them. I got my first M in 1996 (M6ttl) and added another 5 M bodies (M2/M4/M7) over the years with the M4 being my all time favorite. 

I really didn't mind the extra thickness of the 240, but had no use for the video features and found it ridiculous that Leica never fixed the green shadow issue. But despite that I really liked the camera.

The M10 was a big step in the right direction for Leica and in my opinion, when the digital M series really came into its own (Although the M9 was close). My only two real complaints about the camera was the desire for a little more dynamic range in the highlights and better battery life. The M10-R corrected the DR issue and I still would buy one of these today, if I came across one at a good price. Purchasing three batteries solved the power problem, but at $200 a pop it wasn't a cheap solution. Otherwise these are fantastic cameras and I believe the M10/M10-R will be popular for a long time to come.

The M11 is a big jump in three key areas. Matrix metering, battery life/USB-C charging and sensor performance. For me personally 60MP is overkill, but the dynamic range is exceptional. Matrix metering is so much more reliable than the old system that I stopped using a handheld meter like I did with my M10. The battery life is so good now that I can run the camera all day with only a second battery as a backup.  Being able to recharge via USB-C from a power pack is a big deal.

My biggest complaint about the M11 is the shutter cycle necessitated for matrix metering to work, but I have made my peace with it.  I'd be thrilled if Leica added an optional closed-open-closed shutter cycle, even if that meant the loss of matrix metering, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

So, far my M11 has been trouble free and I plan on adding the VISO 2. Overall the M11 is a real winner and I will be holding on to this one for a long time.

Leica has pulled off something exceptional in that the gestalt of the film and digital bodies is essentially the same.

Obviously there are differences like the film advance etc., but at the end of the day the two do not feel radically different in operation and you could potentially shoot both a film and digital M body simultaneously and switching between the two would be effortless.

I still love the way film looks, but I also see the beauty in digital. Film has the edge when it comes to longterm archival stability, but I am now concentrating on printing, because at the end of the day prints are all that count.

 

Edited April 2, 2024 by thrid

[algrove]

On 3/26/2024 at 4:47 PM, lct said:

+1. Last time i was so glad with a camera must be in the film days with the Leica M6J.

Excuse my ignorance but what is the J for? Japan?

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[algrove]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:58 PM, Big John said:

Same age!  Have thought about buying an M for, literally, 10 years. Even ordered on 2 occasions but changed mind. Hesitancy has always been around fantastic form factor, great IQ, beautiful lenses vs the anachronism of RF and concerns about focusing ability.  Bought an SL in 2016 and been using that, with ZM lenses.  Am close to getting an M6 to fulfil love of film (still have Nikon F5 from new) but want to replace the SL for newer digital. Current thinking is: SL3 looks great but as my wife keeps reminding me, big cameras mean I don’t take them out much; Q3 a possible but not sure I can do all with just 28mm; and finally, back to the M…..I just wish there was such noise about the freezing etc as it is really off putting. 

Lots of comments are from trolls who like to trash Leica and Leica users.

That's why I say I have NEVER had one problem with all 3 of my M11-one is an M11M. I do FW upgrades the old fashioned why via SD card and do not use Fotos app so far.

Not to say there have not been issues with some M11 main boards perhaps, but as one user here proclaimed hundreds of freezing comments were from just 4 people on one large thread and who knows if one or two of those are non-owners and just trolls.