S4 wish list

[Jon Warwick]

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If Leica used a Sony sensor for the S4, it would be interesting what generation it could be ….ie, the existing one that’s been around for years in the IQ4, GFX100, X2D, etc …..or whether they could time it to incorporate (in some form) the latest 247 megapixel medium format sensor that’s been in the press recently. 

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[Chaemono]

It says that the 247 MP sensor is for industrial use. It‘s probably for this guy right here so that he can do the dishes, too:

 

 

[CCC]

I just happened to have for a few hours the Fuji GFX 100ii (with the 55, 80 and 30TS) and I must confess that I'm impressed. Leica won't have it easy with the S4. Build quality is really good, design much improved over older generations, nice colors, good DR, EVF is excellent and ergonomically while not a shaped/ curved Body like the S line still better than any FF I had in my hands.

What disturbed me was the UI/ Menustructure, which is quite confusing for me and the constant back and forward moving of the lens motors (55 and 80) for hunting the AF point, which I found distracting. 

So if Leica can manage to avoid the latter two points while offering at least or better on the former ones combined with some Sony 33mmx44mm sensor (global shutter is too much dreaming) at a similar price range like GFX Hasselblad X2D that could become in my opinion an intriguing proposition. 

[CCC]

In case I've missed: Is there any official confirmation about the S4 or just the statement of Andreas Kaufmann during an interview?

[irenedp]

In my experience, I think that the Fuji and the Leica S(2 and 3) are worlds apart. 

I don't think that Leica has significant chances -or the will- of manufacturing a camera at Fuji prices. Leica cameras are done by hand in Germany whilst Fuji follows a much more automatised process in lower cost locations.

Although I hear from members in this group that Fuji has increased significantly the quality of its GF lenses, there is a superior echelon on lens quality in the Leica S range (at 3x the price), or to be a bit broader in scope, the Schneiders, Rodenstocks, etc.

If Leica aims to build a clone of a Fuji at a higher price point (similar to the one of the previous S line) they will probably fail, except with a group of hardcore Leica users -some professionals and well-off amateurs-, but not wedding or average generalist commercial photographers. Sincerely, I don't think that Leica can win there. The SL is successful, but only if you don't look at the competition's numbers (starting with the much cheaper almost identical Panasonic, but overall the Nikons and Canons).  

It is fine if they include image stabilisation, but for instance in my photography what is paramount is the perfect quality, sharpness, and color accuracy  all across the lens. I may be part of a smaller group, but those -the ones who work with Phase One, and 8x10 view cameras, in fashion, advertising, landscape and architecture- are a high value niche, where Leica has possibly something to sell if they keep focusing on top quality. 

 

[chrismuc]

IMO Leica faces two issues:

1. They are much too late to the (medium format mirrorless) game.

2. How to achieve to create not just a ‚me too‘ product?

The Fujiflm and Hasselblad systems are so mature already, which a large selection of excellent lenses. Before, the Leica S system differentiated also by being a DSLR, the 1:1.5 format sensor and by using three unique sensor generations. But a mirrorless Leica S would be mirrorless like the competition and - as the Q3, M11 and SL3 in 3624 sensor size use the common 3.76 um Sony sensor - highly probable use the 3.76 um 4433 Sony sensor which all others are using too. 

[Jon Warwick]

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13 minutes ago, chrismuc said:

IMO Leica faces two issues:

1. They are much too late to the (medium format mirrorless) game.

2. How to achieve to create not just a ‚me too‘ product?

The Fujiflm and Hasselblad systems are so mature already, which a large selection of excellent lenses. Before, the Leica S system differentiated also by being a DSLR, the 1:1.5 format sensor and by using three unique sensor generations. But a mirrorless Leica S would be mirrorless like the competition and - as the Q3, M11 and SL3 in 3624 sensor size use the common 3.76 um Sony sensor - highly probable use the 3.76 um 4433 Sony sensor which all others are using too. 

If they use the same ubiquitous Sony sensor that’s now been out for years, I’m not quite sure where the obvious edge will be, apart from potentially wonderful new lenses (highly important, of course) and providing adapters and sensor microlenses that work with all Leica lenses, including M lenses, SL lenses, legacy S lenses, etc etc.

To Chaemono’s point, yes, I also read that the latest and greatest Sony sensor (247mp medium format) is currently for industrial use, but maybe it becomes available one day for consumer use too? I guess my concern is Leica becomes among the last of the players to use the older sensor that’s found in the GFX100 and X2D, and the Fuji and Hasselblad world could move onto the newer (smaller um) sensor, which for 4433 sensor is approx 180mp ….and approx 100mp for full frame ….

Edited March 28, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, CCC said:

In case I've missed: Is there any official confirmation about the S4 or just the statement of Andreas Kaufmann during an interview?

I don't recall if Mr. Kaufmann has spoken on the topic, but several other Leica executives have while "on the record" (during official interviews). The most recent was a French-language video a few weeks ago where a Leica spokesperson confirmed that the new medium format camera would be compatible with M-mount lenses, as well as L-mount and others. Previous interviews have already confirmed S-mount compatibility via an adapter.

For a company that traditionally doesn't comment about upcoming products, they've been quite chatty about the S replacement.

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

I don't recall if Mr. Kaufmann has spoken on the topic, but several other Leica executives have while "on the record" (during official interviews). The most recent was a French-language video a few weeks ago where a Leica spokesperson confirmed that the new medium format camera would be compatible with M-mount lenses, as well as L-mount and others. Previous interviews have already confirmed S-mount compatibility via an adapter.

For a company that traditionally doesn't comment about upcoming products, they've been quite chatty about the S replacement.

I think they have had to be, because their every action since practically 2015 has been telegraphing that there will never be another S camera or lens. Dealers want nothing to do with them, the used market is a graveyard of broken dreams and the last meaningful accessory in the history of the system was an S to L adapter in 2015. The S007 was the last true development in the S system, and that was 9 years ago. The S3 was an S007, right down to the ancient HDMI 1.4 (1.3?) connectors that prevented it from outputting 4k to an external recorder...it could only manage 8bit HD 422, not because of the sensor, but because they did not update anything in the body other than the sensor itself. The last lens was 10 years ago. So if they wanted to at least encourage the idea of a replacement they have to be fairly forthright about it. I think most people who wanted a modern medium format camera from Leica left the system a long time ago, but I think it probably benefits Leica to keep the idea circulating to try to keep the existing S users or SL users in the system long enough for Leica to get an S4 announced.

As for what sensor and how it will be? I don't think it is likely it will be a bleeding edge sensor, because that is not really something Leica has ever done. The hope is more that it is not a sensor that is outdated on day one. Even so, I actually don't think that is really as relevant for medium format. Even as a printer by trade, I don't see a lot of prints that benefit from more than 50mp. They certainly exist, but I don't think 100mp vs 250mp would be a deciding factor for me at least. I work with a 44" printer. 100x150cm prints from the S2 still look superb at 120dpi...even from close up. That is because of the pixel level quality of that sensor. If Leica introduces a 100mp or more S4 with the quality of the S and SL lenses, the deciding factor is going to be more their color science, quality of the lenses, quality of the stabilization and overall user experience. I have yet to meet a client who can differentiate between a Phase One and a GFX100 file when both are properly shot and properly processed. That does not mean there is no difference, only that it is more in the experience of use and the quality of capture than it is in the sensor, that is unless you are literally designing a test to put them side to side with the same image etc..then the differences are more about their in house processing attributes than anything else.

Edited March 28, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[Stuart Richardson]

I also disagree with Irene about the quality that Fuji is capable of. I shoot 8x10 and the favorite lens I have (for 8x10 at least) is the Fuji 450mm 12.5C, despite also owning a 240mm APO Sironar S, a 210 APO Symmar L and so on. Fuji is one of the largest optical companies in the world, and I think that they build the lenses to the spec that they believe they need to achieve to their goals. I don't think there is anything inherent to the lenses being made in Germany that makes them better. Frankly I would trust Fuji more than Rodenstock or Schneider at this point, despite their storied histories. They are now shells of their past selves. Fuji meanwhile is churning out lots of innovative and sharp glass all the time and I am sure their designers and manufacturing capability are among the very best in the world. Leica certainly has deep in house knowledge and are almost completely unrestrained by price. I think it is the latter that explains the main reason why they tend to be at the top of the optical heap, not some inherent difference between Germany and Japan. Forgive me if that is not what you were implying. I am also not so convinced there is a huge difference in assembly between a camera like the GFX and the Leica S and SL cameras. They are also largely built in Portugal, and then put together in Germany. The GFX is made outside of Sendai. I have been to Sendai and have been to Wetzlar...both pretty nice places to be! I can't wait to visit Portugal, haha. I hear it is gorgeous too! In any case, my point is not to say there are not differences. I think it is more that they are more about market position than about capability.

[ynp]

If there was an AF adapter to use my S lenses on a Fuji or any other modern MF body, I would not be waiting for the S4. I just do not want to spend another 35 k for a new system camera and lenses. Leica killed too many systems in my lifetime. And they killed the Digital Sinar-M among them. 
I will keep my S3. Just bought a second charger and another battery. 

Edited March 28, 2024 by ynp

[irenedp]

Stuart, what I meant is that production costs should be different. Besides the level of automation, which brings down costs, how much you pay a worker in Germany vs. Japan -Portugal is somewhat cheap-, is different. So my questioning is whether Leica can make money at Fuji's price point. 

About the quality, IDK. Definitely my S lenses -and same with the Schneiders- are sharper than my old Fuji ones. Jon has mentioned a couple times that the new generation of GF lenses is superb, and if that is the case, there is no niche left. If you want to sell at Rolls Royce prices instead of Ford prices, you have to deliver a difference. If Leica cannot deliver better than Fuji, what is the point of buying Leica? That is what I meant -rather than getting myself in the rabbit hole of Schneider vs. Fuji lenses-: that if Leica wants to sell medium format systems at stratospheric prices, they need to be better. 

[Pieter12]

55 minutes ago, irenedp said:

Stuart, what I meant is that production costs should be different. Besides the level of automation, which brings down costs, how much you pay a worker in Germany vs. Japan -Portugal is somewhat cheap-, is different. So my questioning is whether Leica can make money at Fuji's price point. 

About the quality, IDK. Definitely my S lenses -and same with the Schneiders- are sharper than my old Fuji ones. Jon has mentioned a couple times that the new generation of GF lenses is superb, and if that is the case, there is no niche left. If you want to sell at Rolls Royce prices instead of Ford prices, you have to deliver a difference. If Leica cannot deliver better than Fuji, what is the point of buying Leica? That is what I meant -rather than getting myself in the rabbit hole of Schneider vs. Fuji lenses-: that if Leica wants to sell medium format systems at stratospheric prices, they need to be better. 

Those red dots don't come cheap.

[Adam_James]

I’m holding out for an S4.  My finger is on the trigger for a Phase One XF, but don’t want to cheat.  The thought of putting a Noctilux 75 on an S4 is worth waiting for…

[ZHNL]

I am also looking forward to adapt 80lux and 100 APO R on it. These two offer more generous coverage over most 35mm glass I tired on GFX. Looking at Hasselblad X2D, I admit it has really impressive hardware design, if not leaf shutter only and 1/3 E shutter speed I have gone to that side myself. I hope S4 can match X2D in design with good IBIS.  

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, irenedp said:

Stuart, what I meant is that production costs should be different. Besides the level of automation, which brings down costs, how much you pay a worker in Germany vs. Japan -Portugal is somewhat cheap-, is different. So my questioning is whether Leica can make money at Fuji's price point. 

About the quality, IDK. Definitely my S lenses -and same with the Schneiders- are sharper than my old Fuji ones. Jon has mentioned a couple times that the new generation of GF lenses is superb, and if that is the case, there is no niche left.

I doubt that wage differences between Japan and Germany make a significant difference. Both are expensive places to build stuff, which is partly why Leica has additional manufacturing facilities in Portugal. Besides, mirrorless cameras should be much easier to build than M's. They don't have rangefinders, or any high-precision elements, other than the lens-mount-to-sensor distance. Most of the cost is probably in R&D, tooling, the sensor itself, and (in the case of Leica) machining the main part of the body from a block of metal.

The impression I get from GFX reviews is that the lenses are getting better, but they aren't at the level of S lenses. Every review tells you that you need to stop-down a few clicks to reach "optimal" sharpness. That's fine for most uses, especially landscape, but it's clearly in a lesser league compared to Leica's ideal of "every lens is great at every aperture."

[Stuart Richardson]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

I doubt that wage differences between Japan and Germany make a significant difference. Both are expensive places to build stuff, which is partly why Leica has additional manufacturing facilities in Portugal. Besides, mirrorless cameras should be much easier to build than M's. They don't have rangefinders, or any high-precision elements, other than the lens-mount-to-sensor distance. Most of the cost is probably in R&D, tooling, the sensor itself, and (in the case of Leica) machining the main part of the body from a block of metal.

The impression I get from GFX reviews is that the lenses are getting better, but they aren't at the level of S lenses. Every review tells you that you need to stop-down a few clicks to reach "optimal" sharpness. That's fine for most uses, especially landscape, but it's clearly in a lesser league compared to Leica's ideal of "every lens is great at every aperture."

If we are honest with ourselves, that is also the case with the S lenses, other than maybe the 120mm. I wouldn’t do landscapes below 6.8 on the 70mm because the field curvature was so strong. Sure, it was sharp, just not at the focused distance. They were way better than what came before them, but they are not at the level of the APO Summicrons in terms of performance across the field.  The 30-90 was basically never sharp in the field past 60mm. Obviously the character of the S lenses is lovely though, and that is more important in some kinds of work. 

Edited March 29, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[tom0511]

I think where the S-lenses shine is Bokeh and 3D look, its just all very smooth.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Pelu2010]

To me the most important things are : 

s4 

mirroless 

lighter than s3 and gfx 100 

all the s lenses but shorter and with new motors 

evf with tilt and a good resolution / magnification 

internal memory and dual slots cfxpress 

fast connection to app and computer / iPad 

good powermanagment and usbc charging 

a new pancake lens for street 

ibis / bsi sensor 

multishot and focus shift 

tc 

And low on the list : 

pls ad an internal flashtrigger for 2,4 ghz flashsync 

lenses : 

tilt shift adapter or lenses > wide and portrait 

 

that’s my first thoughts 

[sebben]

Large LCD screen like the X2D.

If it turns out to be just a slightly larger SL3 I will be very disappointed.