Leica SL3 AF

[Dr. G]

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Has anyone played with the settings in the Autofocus setup to reliably get the eyes in focus?  I saw a video where the photographer left the camera in sports mode and maxed everything out at +2  Is there a disadvantage to doing that?

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

I'm not having any significant issues with the default settings. 

Gordon

[Photoworks]

14 hours ago, Dr. G said:

Has anyone played with the settings in the Autofocus setup to reliably get the eyes in focus?  I saw a video where the photographer left the camera in sports mode and maxed everything out at +2  Is there a disadvantage to doing that?

in video, you have even more options.

in this case, you don't want transitions to be too fast, or switch when you have something that crosses in front of your subject.

[Mikko Kankainen]

Tried today to use SL3 in a hockey game. 

Not really any advantage to Sl2-s, hit rate the same. That low resolution EVF when using afc is like what, i hate that...! Image quality the same(noise, overall image look... of course this is great sensor and love it), slower fps if using 14bit raw. Faster ui and card.

Lovely camera but not great for action. Something like 5d mk3  from 2012 is better and things like that really is hard to understand. 4fps even at 18mpix and evf is like 240px is really something else. Well I quess we have to wait and see what FW 4.00 brings 😀 It misses really easy targets with afc that Canons/Sonys would not. Battery life is ok, and I like the new power button that I can easily suspend camera to safe power.

I did not sell my SL2-s, keep using it instead with these assigments. Secondary camera of course..

To be honest I find it strange that I dont see any advantage with this new autofocus system with stills. Not in studio, not in real estate, not in portraits, not in sports. If taking videos yes the new af works way better.

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Edited March 22, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[PeterBoyadjian]

I think Leica forgot to turn on phase detection.....

 

 

[la1402]

38 minutes ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

Tried today to use SL3 in a hockey game. 

Not really any advantage to Sl2-s, hit rate the same. That low resolution EVF when using afc is like what, i hate that...! Image quality the same(noise, overall image look... of course this is great sensor and love it), slower fps if using 14bit raw. Faster ui and card.

Lovely camera but not great for action. Something like 5d mk3  from 2012 is better and things like that really is hard to understand. 4fps even at 18mpix and evf is like 240px is really something else. Well I quess we have to wait and see what FW 4.00 brings 😀 It misses really easy targets with afc that Canons/Sonys would not. Battery life is ok, and I like the new power button that I can easily suspend camera to safe power.

I did not sell my SL2-s, keep using it instead with these assigments. Secondary camera of course..

To be honest I find it strange that I dont see any advantage with this new autofocus system with stills. Not in studio, not in real estate, not in portraits, not in sports. If taking videos yes the new af works way better.

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This is still with Canon EF lenses, right? Just to understand the context. 

Edited March 22, 2024 by la1402

[Mikko Kankainen]

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8 hours ago, la1402 said:

This is still with Canon EF lenses, right? Just to understand the context. 

No with native L-mount lenses. Sample photos are taken with Panasonic 50mm 1.4 lens and I also used Leica 24-70. And I dont want to be negative and this is just my experience.

And I am sure that things will improve in future but for now my summary is that afs seems to be contrast based, afc works ok but it still misses easy targets. But the camera gets job done. 

Does anyone else see what I see that AF-s still makes the same "focus jumps" before locking that SL2's did? Back, forth and then locks. And I mean with native lenses.

I took some quick tests SL3 vs 1DX3, 50mm and same subject. AF-s. Not a good example but you can see how focus jumps with Leica if you look the texture on a "tablet" that lens cap is on.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/3rjpjq5f53spb2o2m2wp3/h?rlkey=z0r9u75zsk99z54jzk0zxgxu6&dl=0

Edited March 23, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[Ken Abrahams]

I had a chance to hold and play with the SL3 today. The Summilux SL 50 lens was amazingly fast compared to the SL2 auto focus. It's not my 50 1.4 however I did a walk around using this lens last year. I saw how this lens was slow to focus and its awkwardness grabbing moving things. Today however on the SL3, this lens was fast in comparison and quite rapid when set for eye and body detect .

It did lose the subject when walking across the frame from left to right however when subject standing still and moving head around, it was glued to the eyes and head. When sizing up different subjects with the 50SL Summilux the focus was rapid and accurate. A great improvement. Setting up the toggle as back focus was slightly different to the SL2/S but important when leaving the shutter free for half presses and or Exp lock.

I loved the new modernised design, the glyphs and shutter sound. Although most people wouldn't be too concerned with the new icon design, I was quite impressed with the refinements that make the camera very classy overall. Its the simple things that add to the whole presentation and if say, one thing was left out in these improvements it would be a let down I feel, like when viewing a classy car and being impressed until the door closing was tested. A tinny door closing sound would turn me off the purchase. I think you know what I mean and for me the SL 3 passed the test with only the SD card door feeling a bit "thin" 

Love the crystal clear EVF. I have SL 601, SL2 and SL2S. The viewfinder and screen have improved greatly adding to a very classy camera.

Just a matter of time before my copy arrives, most likely after Easter.     

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by Ken Abrahams

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

No with native L-mount lenses. Sample photos are taken with Panasonic 50mm 1.4 lens and I also used Leica 24-70. And I dont want to be negative and this is just my experience.

And I am sure that things will improve in future but for now my summary is that afs seems to be contrast based, afc works ok but it still misses easy targets. But the camera gets job done. 

Does anyone else see what I see that AF-s still makes the same "focus jumps" before locking that SL2's did? Back, forth and then locks. And I mean with native lenses.

I took some quick tests SL3 vs 1DX3, 50mm and same subject. AF-s. Not a good example but you can see how focus jumps with Leica if you look the texture on a "tablet" that lens cap is on.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/3rjpjq5f53spb2o2m2wp3/h?rlkey=z0r9u75zsk99z54jzk0zxgxu6&dl=0

I now have some experience with Leica 24-70/2.8, and focusing operation is similar to what I expect with my Sony and Nikon cameras. Like others in AF-S, Leica uses a hybrid focusing system: PDAF moves the focus quickly in the right direction, and a CDAF tuning step finalizes the focusing operation. AF-C does not have the final CDAF tuning step and may, theoretically, be less accurate.

Most cameras turn off PDAF when using spot or pinpoint AF mode.

I am not using AF-C much. It still kind of "rattles," though much less than with DFD.

Edited March 23, 2024 by SrMi

[LocalHero1953]

10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I now have some experience with Leica 24-70/2.8, and focusing operation is similar to what I expect with my Sony and Nikon cameras. Like others in AF-S, Leica uses a hybrid focusing system: PDAF moves the focus quickly in the right direction, and a CDAF tuning step finalizes the focusing operation. AF-C does not have the final CDAF tuning step, and may, theoretically, be less accurate.

Most cameras turn off PDAF when using spot or pinpoint AF mode.

Do your Sony/Nikon cameras use both PD and CD in AFc?

[Mikko Kankainen]

32 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I now have some experience with Leica 24-70/2.8, and focusing operation is similar to what I expect with my Sony and Nikon cameras. Like others in AF-S, Leica uses a hybrid focusing system: PDAF moves the focus quickly in the right direction, and a CDAF tuning step finalizes the focusing operation. AF-C does not have the final CDAF tuning step, and may, theoretically, be less accurate.

Most cameras turn off PDAF when using spot or pinpoint AF mode.

This really makes sense, AF-S initial focus is quick but it makes the few focus jumps, so this "hybrid" makes sense. But I disagree that others work like this or maybe they do technically but in use they just focus and lock. Sonys and Canons that I have used. 

I gave SL3 to Sony photographer in yesterdays game, he is also working there. The first thing he said that what is this focusing doing going back and forward and then locks.

And dont get me wrong I much prefer Leicas to Sonys and Canons, but autofocus is lagging in my experience.

Edited March 23, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

This really makes sense, AF-S initial focus is quick but it makes the few focus jumps, so this "hybrid" makes sense. But I disagree that others work like this or maybe they do technically but in use they just focus and lock. Sonys and Canons that I have used. 

I gave SL3 to Sony photographer in yesterdays game, he is also working there. The first thing he said that what is this focusing doing going back and forward and then locks.

And dont get me wrong I much prefer Leicas to Sonys and Canons, but autofocus is lagging in my experience.

 I agree it is lagging, but it seems more than adequate. Note that I am using BBF, so my experience may be different from those who focus with the shutter button.

[SrMi]

32 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Do your Sony/Nikon cameras use both PD and CD in AFc?

I do not believe that any camera uses hybrid in AF-C. At least I have not noticed the final CDAF step in AF-C.

[AKorenc]

What many of you seem to not understand is that it's not CDAF tech causing the wobbling effect while focusing > DFD tech is.

DFD (Depth From Defocus) is a form of "advanced" (per Panasonic ...) CDAF that should in theory be better than the "original" CDAF at focusing and following moving subjects/using AF-C mode.

And yes, Nikon and Sony do both use a combination of CDAF and PDAF technologies in their AF implementation when using mode AF-S as well as AF-C. Why it works with Sony and Nikon is they are not fooling around with adding DFD into the mix. And they implement the latest and greatest AF algorithms developed by specialized companies.

DFD is only semi-developed technology (because besides Panasonic no other manufacturer is/was ever interested in using it so progress basically is not happening ...), is extremely processor-demanding, simply does not work good (enough) for anything outside of static realm and after a decade+ being pushed on the market through mainly Panasonic products never delivered on even half it's promises ... well, that's Panasonic's promises.

Panasonic (and of course Leica ...) should completely ditch DFD, focus their efforts on making us all forget DFD even existed in a specific point in time and give each and every one of us 10 bucks and an apology, saying "We're so, so sorry we were fooling you for so long with that DFD s**t of ours." And then copy the Sony/Nikon approach followed by buying the most up-to-date AF algorithms.

There's not even a P from PDAF in the SL3 AF technology when using AF-S mode > the AF in AF-S mode is identical in it's functionality and accuracy to SL2 (subject detect really does not bring anything new here ...), PDAF is active exclusively in AF-C mode.

Leica says: "The SL3’s autofocus system combines three technologies using efficient algorithms. Depending on the shooting situation, the interplay of phase detection (PDAF), depth map (Object Detection AF [DFD]), and contrast detection (CDAF) are optimally adjusted. As a result, the SL3 produces perfectly sharp images in any light. Intelligent subject recognition also supports the photography of dynamic scenes. The strengths of each technology are combined into a highly precise system that effortlessly meets all professional requirements."

So it's DFD/CDAF when using AF-S and PDAF/CDAF when using AF-C mode. And yes, it is a highly precise system that effortlessly meets all professional requirements, but it's obnoxiously non-functional system that doesn't come even close to meeting all professional requirements as well. And due to the non-pretentious processor Leica (and Panasonic) decided to use for the SL3 (if a class-leading top-notch proc would be used as in say Z9, Z8, A9III we'd all know it ...), I'd even go so long as to say I don't expect to become much better in the future via FW upgrades; there will be some incremental improvements like animal AF becoming fully available and subject recognition improvements, but that's mainly it. Forget doing 20 fps in 14-bit RAW, active AF-C with Eye-AF and active AE metering ... this ain't no Nikon and it will never be. Let's hope we can go from 4 to 5 in two years' time ...

So a really good AF stays something to be wished for in the Leica world. SL3? Close(r) but no cigar.

Edited March 24, 2024 by AKorenc

[algrove]

Never had my SL3 hunt and wander to date. I use back button AF  having set it to MF in the Focus Mode section. Why have focus and exposure on the same button-the shutter button?

[jaapv]

Panasonic is moving away from DFD to PDAF with good results. The SL3 appears to have followed the move but due to its high pixel count can never be as effective as the S5ii. You’ll have to wait for the SL3S. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Panasonic is moving away from DFD to PDAF with good results. The SL3 appears to have followed the move but due to its high pixel count can never be as effective as the S5ii. You’ll have to wait for the SL3S. 

I do not understand why pixel count matters for focus accuracy or speed.

[Mikko Kankainen]

It does not. It's contrast based focusing that hunts every single time, with every lens with back button af or with what. S5 II is also contrast based in af-s. In most cases it's not something that you see and it's good enough in most cases.

I have used this a lot now in portrait work and I see the same behaviour than in SL2, eye locks but it still focuses background (sometimes... challenging conditions). Typical contrast based behaviour. And I cannot use AF-C=phase because EVF resolution drops to something like vga and you cannot see face details etc.

And again I like SL3 for most part.

Here is good blog:

https://blog.al4.co.nz/2023/09/auto-focusing-a-canon-ef-135mm-f-2l-on-a-panasonic-s5-ii/

 

"I’m no expert so this is conjecture, but I think the reason it performs so poorly at single-shot AF is that the S5 (even the mark 2 model) uses contrast-detect AF in this mode."

Edited March 31, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

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@Mikko Kankainen

So if one uses AF-C the viewfinder drops resolution dramatically? I don’t get how this can be the case on a camera costing this much… Does it have a slower 60fps mode that doesn’t drop resolution? 

[LocalHero1953]

Where is the info source that the S5ii (and SL3) use just CDAF in AFs?

The Panasonic & SL3 specs say they still uses DFD, but neither say which system they use for AFs or AFc..